Video Games: Where do we draw the line?

[Vigilant H2O]

I thought I'd gather other peoples opinions about this topic. All are welcomed, but don't force it on others.

I was wondering what people thought when it comes to video games, and whether it's pushed the boundries too far. We all know video games are not real, they are little packages of entertainment based on fictional events. However there have been some incidents where I have questioned myself as a gamer, and whether I can continue playing games which seem like they're approaching the point where it gets so realistic, it's almost too realistic. I have two examples:

"No Russian"
This controversial level on MW2 sees a CIA agent posing as a Russion terrorist in order to gather intel on Makarov. To do this, the player along with Makarov and two others, enters a Russian airport and guns down innocent civillians. Some are desperatly trying to escape while others are trying to help the wounded, but the terrorists show no mercy and kill many. Now, I know this level is optional and is in fact skippable. However, the fact is it's there on every disc for those who want to play it. I myself did play it, and I really regret it. Infinity Ward pushed the boundries in, my opinion, and the level was just not needed

"Homefront Opening"
This is what got me thinking this. As the campaign begins, you are an American pilot beinged herded onto a bus with other pilots. As the bus is travelling, you see people being supressed, either being beaten, taken into "custody", the usual stuff you'd find in video games. However when you reach the end of the street, a man and a woman plea for their lives and are both shot dead. Immediatly after, you can see a child who must be about 5 years old in age, go in to hysterics. The child is screaming and crying, knowing he just lost his parents. This honestly made me speachless. It's not because I'm an over-sensitive Brit, but the sound of that child crying was just too perfectly done. Ok, it added alot of atmosphere to the game, but was it really needed?


Now I've been playing games since I was 5. Nothing beats a good day sitting down playing the original Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon and many other "classics". Looking at recent games, especially modern FPS' it just seems they're getting too realistic for my liking. Even though we know it's not real, it's small events like this which question whether I should be playing those sorts of games. And if developers have the ability to make these games, whats in-store for them in the future?

Back to my question though, do people think games are pushing these boundries too much? Is there a point where the developer should say "Do not include this, it's borderline realistic"? Again, any and all thoughts are welcome, just don't belittle. I'm interested in knowing what others think :)

[H2O Azian360]

those games are putting people into a realistic aspect. Because in home front that can actually happen people wont admit it or they will ignore it.

and the MW2 mission was based off of a actual mission the CIA had done a while back except it was a bit different.

I think some people will of course complain about it because they don't believe some people should be subjected to such violence but imo it opens people to reality and makes it so people dot just think out side of the US or anywhere in war that its all bull gum sugar drops and when you get shot unicorn stickers fly out. the way they may portray it may be a little graphic but its real and not over put. When I saw the first 10 mins of home front I thought it was very realistic and its happened in other countrys like Bosnia and surrounding areas. but this is my opinion

also when you get too chapter 6 they do some pretty messed up things too the koreans so its equal trade.

[BRx ReiRei]

However when you reach the end of the street, a man and a woman plea for their lives and are both shot dead. Immediatly after, you can see a child who must be about 5 years old in age, go in to hysterics. The child is screaming and crying, knowing he just lost his parents. This honestly made me speachless. It's not because I'm an over-sensitive Brit, but the sound of that child crying was just too perfectly done. Ok, it added alot of atmosphere to the game, but was it really needed?

That paragraph was enough to make me not buy the game now. I was considering getting it, but as a parent that is a little too much for me.

[Rizkit]

Eh I don't think "No Russian" was that awful.. like not bad enough to deter me from playing the game.. it wasn't THAT big of a deal. Plus, they do give you the option to skip it.

As for homefront, wow. I'm not a parent or anything, but that sounds like it was taken maybe just a little too far. Games are supposed to be realistic (especially if they are based off real life things), but I think they should mirror them only to a certain extent.

All it is going to do is desensitize people even more than they already are..

[Vigilant H2O]

Homefront is seriously messed up. I'm just playing for the achievements then trading it in straight away.

In chapter 2 you have to hide in a mass grave of dead bodies to avoid the koreans... I honestly think Homefront is too realistic. I'm not ignorant to the problems like this in the world today, but I do think it shouldn't be included with something which is seen by many as "entertainment"


EDIT: For those who want to see what I'm on about with Homefront and the kids parents: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXq9sxrXMBc Skip to 5:30

[H2O Azian360]

and in chapter 6 they use koreans as captive slaves and torture them use them for "fun" and hang them everywhere

[Rizkit]

Homefront is seriously messed up. I'm just playing for the achievements then trading it in straight away.

In chapter 2 you have to hide in a mass grave of dead bodies to avoid the koreans... I honestly think Homefront is too realistic. I'm not ignorant to the problems like this in the world today, but I do think it shouldn't be included with something which is seen by many as "entertainment"

:mvagree:

[Rizkit]

I just watched it the vid. Yeah I'm not getting it. I know it's supposed to be realistic and all, but that is taking it too far. I will just get depressed. Games are supposed to be fun.............

[H2O Wheatley]

Some games take it too far. I think it's funny how people point the bad stick at games like GTA and call it 'bad taste'

Yet Homefront and MW2 have done worse in comparison, but i commend the developers for making the games realistic..just..TOO realistic if you get my drift.

[PMS Doc]

Yes these images are hard to take, but when you value a game for it's realism in gameplay, there are going to be other things that feel real that you don't like, especially in a war game.

A game is all about the experience, the emotions you feel. Why do you think games like Dead Space 2 and Doom 3 are so popular? because they are sequels of well received games? or because they scare the ever living you know what out of you if you play it in the dark?

When you have a physical, emotional reaction to a video game the experience is more likely to be a positive one because you aren't just going through the movements of left trigger, right trigger.

Video games are incorporating more cinematic elements into gameplay to create more of an atmosphere as well as to tell the story in a way that is entertaining. With games like homefront and that image of the child watching their parents die, as hard as that is to watch for parents out there, it tells a part of your characters story and it sets up an environment in which you WANT to fight back. You aren't just going through the motions, you're wanting to fight back against this force. The players investment in the character is what makes the game.

Yes, games are entertainment and aren't real and in some way shouldn't make a gamer think about the real world issues going on, especially since it's used as a form of escapism and relaxation, but I think I would be more upset if I bought a war game like MW2 which is supposed to be realistic and it didn't include the kind of heart wrenching, sick, completely cruel acts of violence that war can bring.

I feel like, in my country at least, we've become so desensitized to certain images of war because it's ingrained into our media that we learn to disassociate these kinds of images from the reality of war. When we hear about things like this happening we think "oh that's sad, I can't believe that." but when we actually see it, we feel it and truly understand exactly how horrible of a thing it is.

I remember watching a friend play the first Modern Warfare a while back, before I even had money to get an Xbox and there was this scene ( I think it was in the first Modern Warfare, I could be wrong) where one of the many characters got caught in a nuclear explosion. He was trying to escape a city I think and the sonic boom or whatever caught his helicopter, crashing it into the desert. And as he crawled out of the helicopter, he looked up and saw a giant red and orange mushroom cloud. I remember feeling so... I don't know. To say that image has stuck with me is an understatement. I felt so helpless and saddened and just a whole conflict of emotions with just that image alone and I think having that association with war, that negative "this shouldn't happen" association isn't a bad thing.

I understand that we want to play these games and have fun and not be debbie downers about this situation, but I think completely ignoring the fact that this kind of stuff really happens is...ignoring a big part of the reality that we as gamers want to see in the first place.

Yeah seeing this kind of stuff over and over in games can be desensitizing, annoying, repetitive.... and yeah developers CAN push the envelope in an attempt to gain more shock factor...but I don't think that game developers have yet to reach that line of "too far."

That's just my opinion.
Sorry for such a long post >,< I can be vurry opinionated.

[Vigilant H2O]

That is a very good opinion :)

Here's something I personally deem acceptable and within the boundries of games:
Call of Duty: World at War opens with two american soldiers being tortured in a Japanese hut. One gets his face (I believe his eye) singed by a lit cigar. This made me cringe admittedly, especially after he had his throat slit and the blood sprayed against the wall. However this for me is ok in a video game. Well, the way it was shown was ok. It was war, it set the atmosphere, I wanted to lead the charge against the Japanese.

[H2O Obsidian]

No Russian wasn't as bad as people portray it be. You could skip it or some people played it and just didn't shoot anyone. When I played it I did what I was supposed to and mowed civilians down. I think the mission served a purpose though, acts of terrorism are bad to hear about but this mission actually showed you one and how bad they really are. That being said it shows Makarov at the beginning and end of the mission with his dialog through the mission. All the people were dying and it was focusing on him and it was supposed to make you hate him or want to kill him(did for me anyways).


As for Homefront I haven't played it but I still want to. The people being beat and seperated isn't bad. The parents being shot and the little kid didn't even bother me, my reason for saying that is because I'm happy someone finally made a game with what a real invasion would be like. It's not gonna be sugar-coated or glossed over by saying "Korea has invaded the U.S." and then skip to you fighting them half the world away. This happens in war, families are separated, innocents are killed, happy kids become orphans. Again it shows you how bad things would really be if it happened or what happens when other countries invaded each other, but it makes you want to fight them or regain your homeland in Homefront's case. I think the things they put aren't out of line but actually something I would like to see more of, it puts a more realistic view in the game.

That's just my personal opinion

[H2O DarkKnight 2k6]

I didnt read the Homefront bit because i havent played the game and i dont want no spoilers (which BTW should be announced on the 1st post that there might be spoilers on this thread). On MW2's "No Russian" mission, i also dont think it was that bad and it was usefull to the story and here is why:

1. It shows you why the russians invade the U.S even though it was a russian who plotted the whole thing and framed the U.S.
2. Also shows why you end up in Rio when you play as Roach.

I dont think games can go too far since its a game. if you cant handle the content... dont play it. same as a movie, if you know its gory and sick... then dont watch it. Only reason "No Russian" got this much attention is because some noob at fox news or whatever thought it would make for some good news and made it a lot worse than it was. They tried doing the same with Bulletstorm but they failed on that one.

[PMS Doc]

I'm happy someone finally made a game with what a real invasion would be like. It's not gonna be sugar-coated or glossed over by saying "Korea has invaded the U.S." and then skip to you fighting them half the world away. This happens in war, families are separated, innocents are killed, happy kids become orphans. Again it shows you how bad things would really be if it happened or what happens when other countries invaded each other, but it makes you want to fight them or regain your homeland in Homefront's case.


:mvagree:

[H2O Azian360]

That is a very good opinion :)

Here's something I personally deem acceptable and within the boundries of games:
Call of Duty: World at War opens with two american soldiers being tortured in a Japanese hut. One gets his face (I believe his eye) singed by a lit cigar. This made me cringe admittedly, especially after he had his throat slit and the blood sprayed against the wall. However this for me is ok in a video game. Well, the way it was shown was ok. It was war, it set the atmosphere, I wanted to lead the charge against the Japanese.

idk why but to me that sounds very hypocritical

[PMS Vertigo]

*Tosses 2 American cents @ Vigilant* I don't have any pounds. :(

My opinion is that these games are incorrectly marketed, or are taken too lightly. They are here rated M for Mature, which is 17+. It is labeled for a reason.

The median age of gamers is at 35yrs old, as the late 70's atari group and 1980's Nintendo group, myself included, are STILL playing, and now creating these games. I can't speak on all 30+ somethings by any means, but I can account that the personal friends I know that play console games, want "adult themed" storyboarding rather than cartoonish play. How more "grown up" can you get than CoD4's UK/USA vs Middle East?

I have Call of Duty 4-7 and Homefront. It gave me chills, but I enjoyed it because it was something to think about, and that's what I wanted.

[H2O Turkey]

*Tosses 2 American cents @ Vigilant* I don't have any pounds. :(

My opinion is that these games are incorrectly marketed, or are taken too lightly. They are here rated M for Mature, which is 17+. It is labeled for a reason.

The median age of gamers is at 35yrs old, as the late 70's atari group and 1980's Nintendo group, myself included, are STILL playing, and now creating these games. I can't speak on all 30+ somethings by any means, but I can account that the personal friends I know that play console games, want "adult themed" storyboarding rather than cartoonish play. How more "grown up" can you get than CoD4's UK/USA vs Middle East?

I have Call of Duty 4-7 and Homefront. It gave me chills, but I enjoyed it because it was something to think about, and that's what I wanted.


Yeah I agree with Vertigo.

But none the less. I have noticed that video games have ramped up things to the extreme, sometimes I view these games as subliminal messaging or just warnings or insight. Like nothing is to be taken lightly and yes I am sure this is where they want to bring what war is like, But like I believe there should be some sort of sensorship in all this. Like it doesn't matter the rated M or anything, it will still get in the hands of children, so there should be a level of censorship but also you can't lie, does that make sense?

[Vigilant H2O]

Allow me to take some time out of my report writing to clear up the matter Inevitable :)

I think I was desensitised to it because I knew these were soldiers, not innocent civilians. For some reason soldiers being executed don't affect me. But innocents do. In game anyway, all killings upset me irl.

[H2O Turkey]

well yes, its just moral issue for people. I don't like seeing innocents dying either

[H2O Azian360]

than you should be upset with the halo franchise too because they have innocents dieing and an entire planet getting destroyed and other games do the same thing its just that they put it in a reality aspect that bothers you.

[Famous]

I don't like it when Master Chief kills aliens. They have feelings too. :(

[CajunH2O]

I say all is fair game...when it comes...to ...well....games. I mean seriosuly. Its entertainment. Sure some things may hit a nerve for some people. Other people see it for what it is...as awesome storytelling. I was pretty upset when EA changed the Talibans name in MoH....and IM a soldier. The way I see it if you dont like it...if you know it will offend you....dont buy it, dont play it and stay away from it. To quote a great comedian, AUggie Smith, "I dont like Bed Bath and Beyond, but I dont put on an axis of evil with Baby Gap, I just dont go" Same applies here. ANd if its kids ya worried about, well maybe the parents should be parents and know what theyre buying for their kids, or keep their credit card away from em

[H2O Azian360]

I say all is fair game...when it comes...to ...well....games. I mean seriosuly. Its entertainment. Sure some things may hit a nerve for some people. Other people see it for what it is...as awesome storytelling. I was pretty upset when EA changed the Talibans name in MoH....and IM a soldier. The way I see it if you dont like it...if you know it will offend you....dont buy it, dont play it and stay away from it. To quote a great comedian, AUggie Smith, "I dont like Bed Bath and Beyond, but I dont put on an axis of evil with Baby Gap, I just dont go" Same applies here. ANd if its kids ya worried about, well maybe the parents should be parents and know what theyre buying for their kids, or keep their credit card away from em

:mvagree:

[k1d 650]

I have no problem with either example you provided. I actually thought the Homefront example was funny not because of the child losing his parents is funny, but the voice acting of the guy on the bus with you is so bad! "Wow...poor kid. That's so depressing!" I don't see any developers really pushing the envelope. At least not right now. The examples you given are there for realism and to emotionally invest you into the story.


I say all is fair game...when it comes...to ...well....games. I mean seriosuly. Its entertainment. Sure some things may hit a nerve for some people. Other people see it for what it is...as awesome storytelling. I was pretty upset when EA changed the Talibans name in MoH....and IM a soldier. The way I see it if you dont like it...if you know it will offend you....dont buy it, dont play it and stay away from it. To quote a great comedian, AUggie Smith, "I dont like Bed Bath and Beyond, but I dont put on an axis of evil with Baby Gap, I just dont go" Same applies here. ANd if its kids ya worried about, well maybe the parents should be parents and know what theyre buying for their kids, or keep their credit card away from em

And this too.

[Vigilant H2O]

k1d, that was a guy commentating, not voice acting :p Even though the voice acting is attrocious anyway.

Halo dosen't bother me, because it's sci-fi. And, it's entertainment! Some recent warfare games aren't... They try to entertain through realism but it strikes too many nerves! That dosen't mean warfare needs to turn into shooting beams of rainbows

Famous, that quote made me lol :D

[Mindless]

Some games take it too far. I think it's funny how people point the bad stick at games like GTA and call it 'bad taste"

Reason being, is that GTA pioneered video game violence. GTA came out when the most violent game of that time was considered Mortal Combat (2 I believe?). Fact is, GTA3 was so violent that is why you have to get your mommy to come in and give you permission to buy a game if you are under 18. GTA slew up more controversy than MW2 ever did.

I find it weird that you guys are talking about Homefront and it's execution of innocents and nobody mentioned COD4 and it's beginning scene that had people lined up and shot, dogs chasing people, execution of a governmental leader, ETC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgNUS9XL4eA

[Butler47]

I do not believe in censorship, so no, I don't think there is a line or a boundary for game companies going too far. I do not want any self imposed authority telling me what is good for me. If the medium is to evolve, it needs moments where it lashes out and creates an uproar, to get people talking, to get people thinking, to get people doing exactly what we are participating in right now, a dialectic. I am a proponent of the mindset that games are art. However, what is holding them back is the commoditization of the medium. Now it is merely a pipe dream to wish for games to remove themselves from a capitalistic crutch, because it feasibly can not happen.

What I am tired of is games throwing those edgy scenes in just for the shock and a sales boost. If there is no true thought, or introspection on how it affects you then it is a waste. In our culture video games are a distraction, meant to keep us numb, a device of pure entertainment. (Entertainment in the sense of base pleasure fulfilling, I'm not saying all entertainment is bad). Escapism has its place, but for right now it's becoming an addiction. Maybe one day games will inspire us and help us grow on an intellectual level, but right now they are being stifled by greed.

[Ask a Ninja x]

These aren't the only games that have done this. In assassins creed 2 you see your whole family get hung (including you're little brother) and look at this trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwtr_-4vz6g for a new game coming out called Dead Island. Realism in any thing fictional gives you a kind of connection to what you're watching. Movies, video games. You can picture yourself going through the same thing. I personally love realism in games and don't think there should be any border to it since it's art :P

[H2O Dcaf]

all of these things you guys are complaining about are in movies as well, and are usually alot worse. movies have ratings, games have ratings. its a free country. a game maker can put whatever they want into a game as long as it has an appropriate rating, just like a movie. its your option to buy the game or not to buy the game.

personally, i like those types of cutscenes as you described in mw2 and homefront. it sets the atmosphere. its kind of like watching a movie, and then afterwards when your playing you get to be in the movie. i say keep em coming

[RebelleNsane]

I rented Homefront, and after that scene with the kid and his parents, I took out the disc and brought it back to the store. Was a bit much, even though I've played a lot of violent videogames in the past.

[tenordrummer]

to the children, it desensitizes them to gory stuff, and killing, but to some adults( i say some) it gives us insite into what is really happening in the wars.... but kids dont need to c this stuff

[Butler47]

to the children, it desensitizes them to gory stuff, and killing, but to some adults( i say some) it gives us insite into what is really happening in the wars.... but kids dont need to c this stuff

Well to that point, it should be up to the parents to supervise what their children encounter. These games are intended for older players given their rating, despite even if they are marketed to children.

[H2O Major Pain]

i could never play homefront ty for warning me vigilant

[Lady Eve PMS]

to the children, it desensitizes them to gory stuff, and killing, but to some adults( i say some) it gives us insite into what is really happening in the wars.... but kids dont need to c this stuff

:mvagree:

[Kestral H2O]

Sadly not all kids are censored in this world. They are right there in the action :(

[ShiftKeyComma3]

Hm, they're going to see it anyway. Can't change that.

[Lady Eve PMS]

Hm, they're going to see it anyway. Can't change that.

When you say "they're going to see it anyway," if you mean "during their lifetime" then yes they probably will. But if you mean that kids (17 and under) will play rated-M video games or watch rated-R movies anyway, that is debatable. I was only allowed to play rated-M games and watch rated-R movies when I was 14-17 because my parents allowed it (and it was only certain games and movies). And, sure, you might reply by saying that kids can easily go to a friend's house to play or watch something that their parents would normally not allow. However, I still think that if parents are able to effectively control what their kids watch or play, then kids may never "see it" until they choose to do so when they become adults.

[H2O Major Pain]

When you say "they're going to see it anyway," if you mean "during their lifetime" then yes they probably will. But if you mean that kids (17 and under) will play rated-M video games or watch rated-R movies anyway, that is debatable. I was only allowed to play rated-M games and watch rated-R movies when I was 14-17 because my parents allowed it (and it was only certain games and movies). And, sure, you might reply by saying that kids can easily go to a friend's house to play or watch something that their parents would normally not allow. However, I still think that if parents are able to effectively control what their kids watch or play, then kids may never "see it" until they choose to do so when they become adults.

:mvagree: i was grounded alot when i was a kid and it sucked getting grounded becoming ungrounded only to be regrounded

[Butler47]

In my experience it has been the people who are overly sheltered, have the most trouble with coping and understanding. Exposing kids at a reasonable age to more mature themes and having a healthy discussion about it in my opinion isn't such a bad thing. Censorship can have awful consequences, and overexposure as well for that matter.

[H2O Oh Malley]

*Tosses 2 American cents @ Vigilant* I don't have any pounds. :(

My opinion is that these games are incorrectly marketed, or are taken too lightly. They are here rated M for Mature, which is 17+. It is labeled for a reason.

The median age of gamers is at 35yrs old, as the late 70's atari group and 1980's Nintendo group, myself included, are STILL playing, and now creating these games. I can't speak on all 30+ somethings by any means, but I can account that the personal friends I know that play console games, want "adult themed" storyboarding rather than cartoonish play. How more "grown up" can you get than CoD4's UK/USA vs Middle East?

I have Call of Duty 4-7 and Homefront. It gave me chills, but I enjoyed it because it was something to think about, and that's what I wanted.

I quite heavily agree with this statement. There's two major views to take on video games as well. Are video games a toy for entertainment? Or is it a new art form? Music and movies already have the social acceptance (or at least to some degree) to depict horrifying images, controversial political stances, etc.

If companies are worried about their bottom line, then they're obviously not going to put in overly-controversial material.

However, if they feel that if the scene provides some sort of emotional impact to draw you into the story and that the story would seem somehow empty without it, then they have the right to express it and put it in the game. They have the same right and freedom to do so just as much as any movie director or songwriter.

I do believe it is up to the consumer to educate and inform themselves before buying anything out right and to understand the potential risks involved. The ESRB system does full detailed reviews of the games of what to expect if you're worried about sensitive material.

On the other hand, I believe that developers should provide content/gore/language filters in their games. Epic does, why shouldn't everyone else?

[PMS Goosechecka]

There's a game in Japan where the entire goal of the game is to rape women.

To the guy who said that all games are fair game, I hope you didn't know this game existed.

As far as gore and violence, there's a reason these games are rated for mature audiences. There is tons of research out there about how children exposed to these types of games develop emotional and behavioral problems, which is not a surprise considering they're not at the cognitive or emotional maturity level needed for the game (thus the rating). Some kids aren't lucky enough to have good parents, but mature audiences shouldn't be censured because of that. Personally, I think stricter laws against selling M-rated games to minors should be enforced.

*And yes, I'm sure there are 14, 15, 16 year olds on this site that play violent games and have no problems. Let me say upfront that studies of hundreds of individuals trumps singleton anecdotal accounts.

[H2O DarkKnight 2k6]

There's a game in Japan where the entire goal of the game is to rape women.

To the guy who said that all games are fair game, I hope you didn't know this game existed.


there is also one where you assasinate a former president, and one where you a shake the baby till it dies. (i know about em because of X-Play and not from playing them). these dont count as games because it obviously has no point other than shock value and you could say they are the trolls of the game industry.

[PMS origins]

These things happen in movies and in real life.

People get killed and raped, babies get shaken, people get assassinated - thousands of people die every single day in one way or another.
Do you watch the news?

You choose what you play and censor your children if you have them.

They are games. It is entertainment.
You go over the line when you start thinking of them as anything but that. :)