Habeus Corpus

[AnD Alex]

2 weeks ago Congress enacted a law that suspends the right of habeus corpus.

For those who dont know, habeus corpus is the right to a fair and speedy trial. Also, it entitles that the "perpetrator" be told why he was arrested as well as how long he is to be held.

Congress felt the need to suspend this right because they feel that terrorism has reached an all time high. If you answer the door, and one of you friends asks to use your phone or asks for some money and you give it to him, then you can be charged with aiding a terrorist and be taken away to prison without ever being told why.

Potentially, you could be held until you die without ever being told why you were arrested.

What do you guys think?
Does our government have the right to do that? (they do) but do you think they should?



(posted by: MoB HUGGYBEAR 3 in the mob forums)

P.S. i just believe this is an interesting topic and wanted to see others views

[x SexyPink x]

Hell no cuz thats invading our constitutional rights

[Rip]

Unfortunately I feel that the presentation of the 'facts' was somewhat biased, can we get some documentation on exactly what congress did specifically, say sections of whatever act they passed? Only then can we really decide what is an issue to debate upon.

[AnD Alex]

rip the discussion has nothing to do with the documentation. it pretains to the fact that the government is trying to suspend the writ of hebeus corpus if you want a better discription on what it is.

Hebeus Corpus
A writ of habeas corpus is a court order addressed to a prison official (or other custodian) ordering that a detainee be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he or she should be released from custody. The writ of habeas corpus in common law countries is an important instrument for the safeguarding of individual freedom against arbitrary state action.


so why would the government be able to take that way from you?

[Pencilposer]

This is not the first time the United States Goverment has done this. Lincoln took the writ of Habeus Corpus and said to hell with it and imprisioned newspaper writers. Even if the Congress passes such a blantant Unconstitutional law, it will not take long before it is challenged by a victim in the Supreme Court. It will not take long before it is struck down. But even then we have no one to blame for this but ourselves. After 9/11, the american public was more then willing to trade rights for the guise of safety. and when you give up one right you give up all rights, starting with the patriot act, we lost all ability to claim rights in the constitution. It is the sad but nessecary truth of the matter. We are to blame for our problem.

[H2O Fate]

My friend wrote this not me

"no suspending habeus corpus defeats the purpose of the constitution former president monroe once said that the framers of the consistution had created a government capable of being run by devils

so now we are dependend upon the tribunals setup by the attorney general aka the same man who said torture is okay so in effect congress has legalized torture of citizens and anyone else considered to be enemy combatants so pretty much we are all subject to bushes mental state"

But in a way it seems like hes right.

[Pencilposer]

It is never right to take away rights that are given by the constitution. no matter what might possible happen, death is not as bad as losing our rights. To feel safe, we may find ourselves in a state worse then death. That can never feel right.

[edx]

Make the first step in doing something about it. Go register to vote. Educate yourself on the policies, candidates, practices.

[H2O Snake]

Habeas Corpus well besically fair and speedy trial is covered in the sixth amendment to the US constitution (aka bill of rights). Amending the constitution is a VERY hard process and takes forever and is BIG news. It would never pass or if it did most people would know about it. This is basically propaganda your spreading with that statment. Please check your facts before reposting something. Gosh people do you not even know basic government and your own constituion?

And you didnt even spell it right its "Habeas Corpus" not "Habeus Corpus"

BUT the Habeas Corpus change only applies to aliens. (NON CITIZENS). If your here illigally frankly i don't care if your get imprisoned without telling you why. YOU ARE HERE ILLIGALLY. YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS. Well actually you do but yeah. But you commited a crime against the US by coming here illigally so thats your explanation for being imprisoned lol. Now aiding someone deemed a terrorist and getting charged with it can happen. But i really dont think it would go that far for the US Citizen. Show me a news article where this happened that a US citizen was detained without Habeas Corpus.

Here is the change read it and understand it:
"Except as provided in section 1005 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, no court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination." §1005(e)(1), 119 Stat. 2742.

Now if you wanna talk about inflicting on our rights to protect from terrorism. Look at the USA PATRIOT Act (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act). If congress actually read this act before passing it. Very few actually did since its very very very very long. It probebly wouldnt have such a big approval. It really gives the governemnt alot more power and takes away rights. Its a good read. If your bored go read it :P

[Pencilposer]

I have read a portion of it, it is too long to read in one sitting. And on voting, I voted today with an absentee ballet, MY FIRST TIME VOTING, I feel happy!!

[n i k i t a]

ALL humans have rights. But i guess not in America. Strangely though, Bush dont hesitate to invade and/or make profits from other regions..but damn you if you come to america illegaly!
Him allowing torture on prisoners says it all. Everything all global human rights watchers are working for, he works against. Welcome future of alienation, torture and living under fear. THATS what all those little pretty words mean in reality.

And the statistically most frequent terrorist decade was in the 70ies, in europe. More bombings, killed politicians/civilians and threats were made then than now. So..terrorism is not increasing. But it must be convinient for Bush to glide on that false statement and take away peoples human rights, supported by people in fear.

[Fuzzy]

rip the discussion has nothing to do with the documentation. it pretains to the fact that the government is trying to suspend the writ of hebeus corpus if you want a better discription on what it is.

Hebeus Corpus
A writ of habeas corpus is a court order addressed to a prison official (or other custodian) ordering that a detainee be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he or she should be released from custody. The writ of habeas corpus in common law countries is an important instrument for the safeguarding of individual freedom against arbitrary state action.


so why would the government be able to take that way from you?

I think Rip wanted a source or a link that would verify the expunging of the habeas corpus law.

I don't think anybody pointed this out, but there is an important provision that is noted in the new law:

The suspension of the writ of habeas corpus – the ability of an imprisoned person to challenge their confinement in court—applies only to resident aliens within the United States as well as other foreign nationals captured here and abroad.

Link (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2006/10/19/couricandco/entry2109264.shtml)


The face value of this law does not apply to U.S. citizens. This law only applies to resident aliens that live in the U.S. and any captured foreigners or aliens being contained in the U.S. So basically, this law does not affect me in any way. Still, I am quite appauled by George Bush's decision to do away with the writ of habeas corpus, a cornerstone of our guaranteed rights to trial and sentencing.

The death of our precious habeas corpus is an interesting discussion that I have come across several times in my sociology of torture class. In this class, we aim to discuss the sociological feedback of torture and fear of torture used by the individual, a group of individuals, or by our government. Throughout my research I read a book called American Methods which goes into explicit detail about the detainees from GITMO (Guantanamo Bay) and Abu Ghraib, both of which are hotly debated terrorist incarceration facilities. While reading American Methods, there was a chapter that was dedicated to defending the argument of using [unethical and impractical] torture on terrorist suspects. The main argument was the "ticking timebomb theory," which stated that there might be an event when time is limited and it is crucial to extract from a person who might have valuable information. This was the chapter's verification for using torture, and more specifically, it was also the argument against issuing habeas corpus for that terrorist suspect.

My guess on this whole abolishing of habeas corpus is to provide a speedy and more "efficient" process of gaining information from a potential terrorist or a terrorist affiliate in order to protect the larger group. Instead of getting a warrent, withholding them till trial, trying them in a court, and sentencing them, the government may now, if they choose to, to take the suspect into custody without question and do with him or her whatever they want.

[PMS Archeai]

ALL humans have rights. But i guess not in America. Strangely though, Bush dont hesitate to invade and/or make profits from other regions..but damn you if you come to america illegaly!
Him allowing torture on prisoners says it all. Everything all global human rights watchers are working for, he works against. Welcome future of alienation, torture and living under fear. THATS what all those little pretty words mean in reality.

And the statistically most frequent terrorist decade was in the 70ies, in europe. More bombings, killed politicians/civilians and threats were made then than now. So..terrorism is not increasing. But it must be convinient for Bush to glide on that false statement and take away peoples human rights, supported by people in fear.

In an ideal world we all would have rights as human beings. Unfortunatly we don't live in said world. Bush is in office, but not for much longer, then we can elect yet another outlandish leader who will probably piss off half of U.S. citizens and thrill the other half. There is no way one person acting as leader for our country is ever going to please the entire union. We are all convinced one country is worse than the other, one religion is unacceptable over another, and that skin tone and gender are proper barriers for those "inferior" to be categorized by. The majority of people that run our world are greedy, covetous, power hungry, and violent. As a people we are generally lazy and slack about what goes on. If you want to change the world or you think that someone is not doing it the right way don't just vote for someone. Sure research the topics figure out where you stand with all these issues we have yet to resolve, but don't just hope someone will come along and do it and fit perfectly to your scheme of a leader. Act on it become a leader in your own right and be more knowledgable about the issues than taking what you are told by media at face value. Honesty is not too popular when you can simply expand the story for more airplay.

[H2O Snake]

In an ideal world we all would have rights as human beings. Unfortunatly we don't live in said world. Bush is in office, but not for much longer, then we can elect yet another outlandish leader who will probably piss off half of U.S. citizens and thrill the other half. There is no way one person acting as leader for our country is ever going to please the entire union. We are all convinced one country is worse than the other, one religion is unacceptable over another, and that skin tone and gender are proper barriers for those "inferior" to be categorized by. The majority of people that run our world are greedy, covetous, power hungry, and violent. As a people we are generally lazy and slack about what goes on. If you want to change the world or you think that someone is not doing it the right way don't just vote for someone. Sure research the topics figure out where you stand with all these issues we have yet to resolve, but don't just hope someone will come along and do it and fit perfectly to your scheme of a leader. Act on it become a leader in your own right and be more knowledgable about the issues than taking what you are told by media at face value. Honesty is not too popular when you can simply expand the story for more airplay.

Wow i gotta say very well said. But yes a huge portion of the US is completly oblivious to politics. Lets do an example. See if you can answer all these questions without looking them up. These are all basic politcal questions. The percentages are from polls on who knows this. BTW this is all geared towards people who live in the US. But it really shows that alot of the US dosent know really the first thing when it comes to fundamental knowledge of politics and the workings of our own government.

1) How long is the preident's term? (95% 1989)
2) What is the meaning of veto? (89% 1989)
3) Who is our current vice president? (84% 2004)
4) Who is the more conservative party? (78% 2004)
5) Which party has the majority in the House of Representatives? (68% 2004)
6) Which group decides if laws are constitutional? (67% 1992)
7) Who is the President of Russia? (67% 1996)
8) Who is the Prime Minister of Great Britain? (62% 2004)
9) Who is the current speaker of the House? (60% 1998)
10) Which party has the majority in the Senate? (60% 2004)
11) Who appoints federal judges? (58% 2004)
12) What is an economic recession? (57% 1989)
13) How many senators does each state have? (52% 1978)
14) Which amendments are included in the Bill Of Rights? (46% 1989)
15) What is the term of a U.S. representative? (30% 1978)
16) Who is the Chief Justice of the United States? (28% 2004)
17) What are the names of both of your Senators in your state of residence? (25% 1989)
18) What is the length of the term of a U.S. Senator? (20% 1989)
19) Who is the current Speaker of the House? (10% 2004)
20) Who is the Senate majority leader? (9% 2000)
21) Name two Fifth amendment rights? (2% 1989)

This one wasent survied but what do you think the percentage of the population knows all of their rights protected by the bill of rights? I would say less then a percentage. I personally don't know them all because there is alot. But i do know what each amendment entails but thats because im still in college. Imagine just a regular citizen has without this knowledge fresh in your head. Now you seriously don't need to go and post your answers to these questions. But just looking at them to yourself really can tell you kind of where you stand on fundamental knowlege. And personally i didnt know the answers to the questions either.

[meow]

Wow i gotta say very well said. But yes a huge portion of the US is completly oblivious to politics. Lets do an example. See if you can answer all these questions without looking them up. These are all basic politcal questions. The percentages are from polls on who knows this. BTW this is all geared towards people who live in the US. But it really shows that alot of the US dosent know really the first thing when it comes to fundamental knowledge of politics and the workings of our own government.

1) How long is the preident's term? (95% 1989) 4 years
2) What is the meaning of veto? (89% 1989) President doesn't sign a bill, doesn't become a law.
3) Who is our current vice president? (84% 2004) **** Cheney
4) Who is the more conservative party? (78% 2004) Republican
5) Which party has the majority in the House of Representatives? (68% 2004) Republican
6) Which group decides if laws are constitutional? (67% 1992) Supreme Court
7) Who is the President of Russia? (67% 1996)
8) Who is the Prime Minister of Great Britain? (62% 2004) Tony Blair
9) Who is the current speaker of the House? (60% 1998) Dennis Hassert
10) Which party has the majority in the Senate? (60% 2004) Republicans
11) Who appoints federal judges? (58% 2004) President
12) What is an economic recession? (57% 1989) Decline of the GDP.
13) How many senators does each state have? (52% 1978) Two.
14) Which amendments are included in the Bill Of Rights? (46% 1989) 1-10
15) What is the term of a U.S. representative? (30% 1978) 2 years
16) Who is the Chief Justice of the United States? (28% 2004) John Roberts
17) What are the names of both of your Senators in your state of residence? (25% 1989) Kay Bailey Hutchinson and John Cornyn
18) What is the length of the term of a U.S. Senator? (20% 1989) 6 years
19) Who is the current Speaker of the House? (10% 2004) Dennis Hassert
20) Who is the Senate majority leader? (9% 2000) Bill Frist
21) Name two Fifth amendment rights? (2% 1989) Grand Jury and ...

This one wasent survied but what do you think the percentage of the population knows all of their rights protected by the bill of rights? I would say less then a percentage. I personally don't know them all because there is alot. But i do know what each amendment entails but thats because im still in college. Imagine just a regular citizen has without this knowledge fresh in your head. Now you seriously don't need to go and post your answers to these questions. But just looking at them to yourself really can tell you kind of where you stand on fundamental knowlege. And personally i didnt know the answers to the questions either.

I am bored at work. Answers in bold.

[Pencilposer]

Wait its only for non U.S citizens? Oh No!!! My mom might get arrested and tortured. And alot of other people's parents might get it too. OH NO!!!

[x SexyPink x]

Rofl and i thought rip talked way 2 much

[Pencilposer]

Lol, ouch burn on rip. Wait, was that a burn on me?

[x SexyPink x]

its not really a burn at all i just havent seen anybody besides rip get so into a discussion

[Pencilposer]

I am a history major with a concentration in pol sci. This is like a crazy field day for me.

[H2O Ninjitstu]

Thats ridiculous!
can we get some documentation on exactly what congress did specifically, say sections of whatever act they passed? Only then can we really decide what is an issue to debate upon.

I agree with you Rip. hard to define what 'facts' are exactly.

[Pencilposer]

Sometimes it is funnier to hear the arguements made without proper information. It is wonderfully funny.

[n i k i t a]

so..basically Bush has passed through a big change in your laws, and noone knows about it?
How many facts do the americans need to be presented to be able to discuss? Scary..
It seems this law change has bigger public attention and media coverage over here, then in the actual states. it´s been all over the news atleast in my country.

[H2O Snake]

No no no think how much litigation and bills moves through the US compared to your country. And on top of that everyone is busy with the Iraq and the Midterm elections. Most news are for profit and they try to get the most viewership. And i think that bill was far down on their priority list.

[Thorn Harvestar]

I am bored at work. Answers in bold.

7 is Vladimir Putin.


How many facts do the americans need to be presented to be able to discuss? Scary..


I would say knowing the actual content of the legislation is an appropriate minimum to be able to have a quality discussion.