Justice: What's the right thing to do?

[PMS Strawberry]

So as I am now the pebble in the admins' shoe, I'm still determined to keep a good, steady, thought-provoking thread. For everyone who doesn't know, I tried another thread that got deleted within 20 minutes about the legalization of something. Which is fine, understood. On the flip, having these discussions in my opinion is a good workout for the brain. It also conveys the maturity of us.

Hopefully, this is not offensive, too much for minors, and does not drive away sponsors.

What do you think is the RIGHT thing to do for punishments?

Death Penalty: right or wrong?

Closing of Guantanamo Bay: right or wrong?

Penny for your thoughts.

[Blue Rose PMS]

I actually used to be for the death penalty. During an episode of Penn & Teller's BS, they interviewed some gentlemen that were on death row but were later found innocent. It made me sit and wonder of how many people were put to death and due to lack of science at that time or corrupt systems, were found guilty.

I'm starting to believe that spending the rest of one's life a small room will cause more psychological damage and be more of a punishment than a 5 minute execution.

[H2O SuperMcNasty]

Death Penalty I really don't agree with it. Why? taking someone life just doesn't justify with me, I don't care what the person did to get the penalty. I just can't go with the Death Penalty it wrong to me.

[H2O Timberwolf]

lol if someone kills someone (unless its self defense lol) what ya do is cut there hands and feet off and remove there teeth. and set em free and see how far they it make lulz

as for the other thing i really dont even know what it is so ?

[H2O SuperMcNasty]

lol if someone kills someone what ya do is cut there hands and feet off and remove there teeth. and set em free and see how far they it make lulz

as for the other thing i really dont even know what it is so ?

Wow :mvclap: Your incredible!!!!!!!!!!

[Righty is LAW]

I actually used to be for the death penalty. During an episode of Penn & Teller's BS, they interviewed some gentlemen that were on death row but were later found innocent. It made me sit and wonder of how many people were put to death and due to lack of science at that time or corrupt systems, were found guilty.

I'm starting to believe that spending the rest of one's life a small room will cause more psychological damage and be more of a punishment than a 5 minute execution.

A life in a small room can cause more psyche damage but they're also being more of a burden on society being kept alive. It costs money to keep them and feed them, ++ to pay for all the security and such.

I'm for it.... people who take another person's life without justified reason should not live another day. The world is a better place without them.

[Forsaken1]

Im very much pro death penalty. Eye for an Eye is my motto and as far as closing guantanamo bay umm i think it would be a mistake. Im actually getting pretty tired of turning on the news and hearing about our goverment agencies torturing suspected terrorists there and how wrong and in-humane it is.

[H2O Pyro]

I think im for it. i can never make up my mind. lol

and closing the bay is retarted.

[k1d 650]

I'm totally for the death penalty. One of the big things that I don't like about California is how long people stay on Death Row for. I think once you're convicted of murder, you should be taken out back and dealt with. Though these guys just appeal the verdict and cause tax payers money.

As for closing Git-Mo, and bringing 'terrorists' into American prisons. I really don't see a big deal in that. Put them in General Population for an hour. Problem solved.

[H2O Phury]

Killing is wrong in any circumstance. Eye for an eye is a barbaric idea. No one has the right to end someones life. Having a burden on our society is a BS excuse seeing as how we have thousands of non-violent drug users locked up. I would definitely let those drug users out before putting anyone to death.

As for Guantanamo Bay, I find it moronic to keep anyone against their will, without any trail or any evidence needed. Water boarding and the other tortures that went on are completely stupid, and a waste of time.

[Equinox Jr H2O]

lol if someone kills someone (unless its self defense lol) what ya do is cut there hands and feet off and remove there teeth. and set em free and see how far they it make lulz


This is past inhumane torture. And Death, you're funny.
But no, I am against the death penalty reason being, too many people are put on the death penalty and then after they're dead are found to be innocent. Well yea, you find out that but how does that help them?
Their family may get some money but the dead guy can't spend it. Ah, I just don't like it. The judge tells the guy that God is the only one that can bring life and death. And then shouts, "We hereby sentenced you to Death by..." ???

[Forsaken1]

Bro society is pretty barbaric also and its only gonna get more barbaric as time goes on. I was not talking about drug offenders, hell most drug offenders are non-violent offenses. Now for these mass murderers and other hardcore criminals that dont give a damn about anything and are deemed a threat to society, yeah go ahead and do away with all of them. As far as torturing terrorists go all i can say is that we need to DO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO. Now im pretty sure that not everyone being held at Git-Mo is a terrorist but until they can be cleared hold them. From what ive saw on the news there have been a few high ranking people with terrorist cells held there. These guys dont give a damn about us, they would not think twice about strapping explosives to their chest and killing as many of us (men, women, children) as they could. The war on terrorism will never end. How can you defeat something that is rooted so deeply in someone. I know i keep saying them but please do not think i am refering to every arabic speaking individual. From the time these terrorists are born they are raised with a hatred most of us will never know. There taken from there homes, brainwashed and turned extremist. They are not afraid to die for their cause because they become martyrs. The bottom line is when you are dealing with these kinda people you do what you gotta do.

[H2O Phury]

Bro society is pretty barbaric also and its only gonna get more barbaric as time goes on. I was not talking about drug offenders, hell most drug offenders are non-violent offenses. Now for these mass murderers and other hardcore criminals that dont give a damn about anything and are deemed a threat to society, yeah go ahead and do away with all of them. As far as torturing terrorists go all i can say is that we need to DO WHAT WE HAVE TO DO. Now im pretty sure that not everyone being held at Git-Mo is a terrorist but until they can be cleared hold them. From what ive saw on the news there have been a few high ranking people with terrorist cells held there. These guys dont give a damn about us, they would not think twice about strapping explosives to their chest and killing as many of us (men, women, children) as they could. The war on terrorism will never end. How can you defeat something that is rooted so deeply in someone. I know i keep saying them but please do not think i am refering to every arabic speaking individual. From the time these terrorists are born they are raised with a hatred most of us will never know. There taken from there homes, brainwashed and turned extremist. They are not afraid to die for their cause because they become martyrs. The bottom line is when you are dealing with these kinda people you do what you gotta do.
So they are different from us because they don't care about our civilians and will kill men, women, and children? Do you know how many innocent men, women and children we have killed? We just call them casualties of war. Mindsets of these individuals are the same thing. Our soldiers are ready to die just as easily for our country as they are for their religion or ideologies. So what's the difference? Because we live in a messed up time we should not even try and make it a little better? You sir have a defeatist attitude. With the drug users, I was only making a point that we could save a lot more money if we let out the non-violent drug users, rather then putting more violent people to death.

[Maxman]

“I am not for public executions, though I support the death penalty. One, it's an appropriate punishment in horrific cases, and two, it's a deterrent. There are studies that say that for every person executed, eight innocent people who might otherwise have been murdered were not.” Ed Koch

[Forsaken1]

Now this would have made an awesome debate thread lol...

[PMS Strawberry]

Now this would have made an awesome debate thread lol...

it IS an awesome debate thread :p

[Forsaken1]

it IS an awesome debate thread :p

HaHa....Word. I shoulda took more debate classes...

[PMS Strawberry]

no one needs debate classes to express/form their opinion on these subjects....it doesn't matter if you sound smart or have good facts to back urself up (okk, maybe it does) but I feel as long as you say what u think....its ur debate. :}

[Maxman]

“We know from worldwide experience that very often when you go beyond the numbers you uncover patterns of sometimes indirect discrimination ... (and) disproportionate application of the harshest penalties, including often the death penalties, on minority groups, people suffering from mental illness,” Louise Arbour

[Do You Disco]

Wasn't it Ghandi who said, "An eye for an eye will make the world blind"? The death penalty is one of the most malicious, inhumane acts that goes in the modern world. No person, no government, or no thing (be it God or whomever) has the right to say another human being may no longer live. It's absolutely disgusting.

[Do You Disco]

Killing is wrong in any circumstance. Eye for an eye is a barbaric idea. No one has the right to end someones life. Having a burden on our society is a BS excuse seeing as how we have thousands of non-violent drug users locked up. I would definitely let those drug users out before putting anyone to death.

As for Guantanamo Bay, I find it moronic to keep anyone against their will, without any trail or any evidence needed. Water boarding and the other tortures that went on are completely stupid, and a waste of time.

Wow, I just pretty much copied your post verbatim and I didn't even notice. +5 for Phury.

[Maxman]

“Any prosecutor that enjoys getting the death penalty has just got a little something wrong with him, ... You temper your enthusiasm over a verdict you know is right and just and what the jury should have done under the facts with just that little hesitation that it's just not something you enjoy doing.” James Gray

[k1d 650]

To add to my previous post, I feel that those convicted of murder should be killed the same way they murdered their victim(s). Call it cruel, inhumane, or whatever. They deserve neither pity nor kindness.

[Maxman]

“We've found about 200 road-rage deaths over a period of several years, compared to the 17,000 a year caused by drunk driving. Some states are considering pretty severe penalties, trying to rewrite laws so that road rage has some specific legal consequences. We're not sure that's appropriate.” Mark Edwards

[Do You Disco]

That's some Dark Ages stuff right there. Damn.

[H2O Phury]

Wow, I just pretty much copied your post verbatim and I didn't even notice. +5 for Phury.

Yes, you may very well be my ideological twin.

[Maxman]

“It's very discouraging to know that in the criminal justice system the people in control don't have time - many times they don't have any information, many times they're overwhelmed by the politics of something, like the death penalty, to seriously want to reform a criminal justice system that they have some control over.” Burke Marshall

[k1d 650]

That's some Dark Ages stuff right there. Damn.

Hahaha, I guess you could say that.

[Do You Disco]

A life in a small room can cause more psyche damage but they're also being more of a burden on society being kept alive. It costs money to keep them and feed them, ++ to pay for all the security and such.

I'm for it.... people who take another person's life without justified reason should not live another day. The world is a better place without them.

Not true, it costs more to put someone to death.

[k1d 650]

Not true, it costs more to put someone to death.

Depends on how you do it.

[Blitz30]

How about focusing on what make people commit henious crimes & try to fix it? I don't think killing criminals lessens crime, and it teaches us nothing really as a society.

[CrispyGiblets]

well im for the death sentence take a life lose your life. i had an an aunt and a cousin killed. he was sent to prison he even laughed about it sounds to me like he needs an injection... idk yea an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind bleh! there are no morals to that at all just like saying yeah beat my ass i wont do anything at all XD

[CrispyGiblets]

How about focusing on what make people commit henious crimes & try to fix it? I don't think killing criminals lessens crime, and it teaches us nothing really as a society.

im up for solving what makes them do it, but when it comes to people who want to kill because they have the power to quite gutting =( ive seen the sadest thing it made me freak out and cry i forget his name but he got about 1000 people to commit suicide because he was going to get arrested the people who lost their families imagine them watching their families drink the poison and watching them die the pictures from the documentary made me cry men lost wives and children. children lost moms and dads... i dont think you can just lock someone like that up he had beaten into their heads that he was god and that they needed to die..... people like that dont deserve life theyre unworthy

[CrispyGiblets]

or another a 35 year old kills a 10 year old girl traumatic exfixiation or what ever that girl was choked to death then (you know -.-) he in no way in hell deserves another breath

[Blitz30]

People like that don't deserve death. Death is easy, like an escape. Life is hard.

[o Miss sik o]

I am for the death penalty.
its very ironic for those who were proven innocent after the death penalty.
As for an eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind.
torturing for information as wrong as it may sound, is necessary. Terrorists Will do anything to kill us. torturing a couple to save thousands seems like a fair trade.
They were taught to hate us and taught to be genocidal.
i would love for everyone to just be peaceful, but there is no reasoning with terrorists.

As far as what we were taught.
To keep our country safe.
Those terrorists, Even kill their own ppl. Their wives, their children, their friends. Anyone who goes against what they believe in.
They don't believe in our free ways.

[PMS Disco]

Hmmmm.
I really don't know about the death penalty.
I wish I was a good enough person to say that if someone attacked and murderously tortured someone's entire family, that they don't deserve to die.
But at this point, I really just can't bring myself to say that they shouldn't. D;

As far as Gitmo is concerned?
SHUT THAT CRAP DOWN.
Wipe it off the face of the earth.
What's the law?
Cruel and unusual punishment is not allowed IN America but if it's in the international waters, then it's okay?
I don't know.


But what I do not, and will never agree with is torturing someone for information. ^
That is not okay in my book, in any circumstance.
Everyone can sit on an objective point of view, until it happens to them and they're the ones in the situation.
(I realize this goes both ways.)

[PMS Disco]

And also, I agree with Phury.
Drug users do not belong in a prison.
They do not belong in jail.
They belong somewhere where they can get help.
ESPECIALLY if they are non-violent.

[PMS Nitemare]

The death penalty has both its ups and down. The average person who has been handed the penalty is usually on death row for years. There are those who are found innocent, but there are others who do such heinous crimes where death seems to be the only solution. There have been plenty of serial killers and murders where death seemed like a easy way out. Listening to the relatives and friends of victims who suffered from people like Gacy, Fish, Dahmer (who's death came at the hands of inmates/convicted killers who thought what he did was horrible), Ramirez, and Manson i'm all for the death penalty. We definitely have the resources today where those that are charged with this outcome can have a proper investigation done. As for those convicted before these resources were available there are ways and many have found them in retrying their cases. A life for a life does seem barbaric, but by keeping a killer alive and "supporting" them in the prison system (which for some is more than what they had, with clean sheets and 3 meals a day) devalue the life that was taken?

[CrispyGiblets]

People like that don't deserve death. Death is easy, like an escape. Life is hard.

true but hell is eternity theyre souls will burn forever and they earned it

[CrispyGiblets]

well ive seen people die horrible ways if you freaking butcher someone to death in front of their children you should die letting them live is like letting them know they got away with it and if they get cancer in prison they get released a terrorist killed 30 people children and wives he was released because he had fuckn cancer your kiddn me

[PMS Strawberry]

Personally, I believe that if someone murders or does something so horrendous they deserve to die. sure, everyone is born human....but if you think about it...humans are like the nastiest species on Earth. I watched a documentary and Soldiers in the Congo raped this pregnant women in front of her children...and after that they made her children step on her stomach....the soldiers got the barely developed baby out of her and made her children eat it in a bowl....they then killed them. See people who have no heart, no feelings, that bring an infinite amount of ignominy unlike normal human beings are a disgrace to the human race and shouldn't be alive.

Call me crazy but yes I do think some people are stuck in a human body that aren't really human. Some mutation in the brain..something went wrong in their way of thinking.

And i'm gunna say something about the 'God' thread only one thing....if there is a god and he loved us and is made of everything good and pure...he should not let such events happen to innocent people. please no one point this out...I don't want the thread being closed.

[Do You Disco]

true but hell is eternity theyre souls will burn forever and they earned it

That's not an empirically provable punishment though. The idea that "they're going to hell," will happen either way, no matter how fast you kill them.

[H2O Moses]

i say if the person did a murder he or she should be killed the way they murderd the person. If it was an accident that's a different story.

[CrazyLSU]

Not true, it costs more to put someone to death.

Dude a 25 cent bullet works just as well as what they are using now and costs a hell of a lot less.

I am fully for the death penalty. I just wish that the government would find a dang way to cut down on the time between the sentencing date and the execution date. Im sick of hearing about prisoners doing appeal after appeal while sitting on death row basically turning it into life in prison instead. I do agree with them having a chance for appeal though. They should set a time limit on that crap though. The justice system cant keep trying to stall the crap till technology progresses to a new level to where they may have a leg to stand on. Be it 10 years or hell even if the guy is on his death bed from age. Call me cold hearted or whatever... but if more than 3 people saw you kill someone... you should be sentenced and the grave be dug during the sentencing phase. Then walked out back and be put in the ground with the 25 cent bullet that can probably be gotten cheaper by ordering in bulk.

[Do You Disco]

Doesn't simply putting a bullet in a guy's head remind you at least a little of the Gestappo though?

[PMS Strawberry]

Doesn't simply putting a bullet in a guy's head remind you at least a little of the Gestappo though?

Yes.

They should be scalpped.
[inglorious bastards, anyone?]
:p

[CrazyLSU]

Doesn't simply putting a bullet in a guy's head remind you at least a little of the Gestappo though?

Why do we have to keep inventing newer higher cost ways of killing people? If it works it works dude. Wow your comparing the Gestappo to the US court system? I know that the courts are screwed up royally but dang :/

[Do You Disco]

Why do we have to keep inventing newer higher cost ways of killing people? If it works it works dude. Wow your comparing the Gestappo to the US court system? I know that the courts are screwed up royally but dang :/

Lawl, not the U.S. Courts. Shooting people is what I was referring to.

It's because we're all human beings, no matter how you look it. If we're going to end someone's life, it's cruel and backwards to be torturous.

[CrazyLSU]

Lawl, not the U.S. Courts. Shooting people is what I was referring to.

It's because we're all human beings, no matter how you look it. If we're going to end someone's life, it's cruel and backwards to be torturous.

OK if your going to go there... how is ending a persons life not torture? A bullet is quicker than lethal injection dude. With the way things are done they are given 2 shots i believe... if not more. They know what is coming and they do feel the first shot minimum. So is that not considered torture even though it is mental torture?

[CrazyLSU]

O and i forgot bout the courts being the gestappo. All that would be changed was the way the execution is carried out. The same people would be making the decisions. Its not like it would be up to freaking Hitler to decide if you live or die.

[Do You Disco]

OK if your going to go there... how is ending a persons life not torture? A bullet is quicker than lethal injection dude. With the way things are done they are given 2 shots i believe... if not more. They know what is coming and they do feel the first shot minimum. So is that not considered torture even though it is mental torture?

Exactly, killing a person is torturous and backwards. My position is that every form of capital punishment is contradictory, sickening, and nonsensical, be it through lethal injection or a bullet.

Oh and you're completely misconstruing what I was saying, I never said anything about U.S. courts. I was saying that simply shooting wrongdoers is taking a page out of the Gestappo's book.

[PMS Hollyw00d]

Killing is wrong in shape or form however there are certain circumstances where killing is inevitable. The death penalty is a way to get rid of the worst criminals out there and I completely agree with it. In the situations involving terrorists I think that there more humane ways of killing someone. There are worst things than death and torture should never be an answer. People die everyday and some die worse than others but its sad when people kill others for no reason. That person could have been someone's mother, father, sister, brother, wife, husband, child.....no matter whether a person is a bad person or not we are still human and the moral thing to say is who are we to judge who lives and dies but we live in a corrupt society where that statement can never be true. Truth is though, no human is perfect and we all mistakes, even extraneous ones such as murder and I do not care what anyone says murder, even a justified one, is wrong and should not happen yet I support the death penalty but I'm only human, a very corrupt human being just like everyone else in the world :) and even though I know murder will always be morally wrong, the human part of me still makes exceptions to that rule and I'm not here to judge who lives and dies, its not my job :)


As for Guantanamo Bay though, I think it was right for it to be shut down. All the crimes committed and accusations made there should have gotten that place closed alot sooner but at least it is now. Thanks to Obama :)

[H2O Phury]

I am for the death penalty.
its very ironic for those who were proven innocent after the death penalty.
As for an eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind.
torturing for information as wrong as it may sound, is necessary. Terrorists Will do anything to kill us. torturing a couple to save thousands seems like a fair trade.
They were taught to hate us and taught to be genocidal.
i would love for everyone to just be peaceful, but there is no reasoning with terrorists.

As far as what we were taught.
To keep our country safe.
Those terrorists, Even kill their own ppl. Their wives, their children, their friends. Anyone who goes against what they believe in.
They don't believe in our free ways.

Yeah, it's only to bad that torturing them has never gave us any useful information. They will say ANYTHING to make it stop. It's almost a guarantee that it will be lies.

well im for the death sentence take a life lose your life. i had an an aunt and a cousin killed. he was sent to prison he even laughed about it sounds to me like he needs an injection... idk yea an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind bleh! there are no morals to that at all just like saying yeah beat my ass i wont do anything at all XD
That makes you seem sort of bias on the whole subject to me. Wanting someones death makes you just as bad as him regardless.



I honestly think no one has the right to deem another unfit to live. If the person is so bad and has committed the most horrible crimes imaginable, then lock him up. Learn from what goes on in his head, I'm sure if we took the time to look at the reasons behind them, we could teach and prevent others from that sort of thinking.

no matter whether a person is a bad person or not we are still human and the moral thing to say is who are we to judge who lives and dies but we live in a corrupt society where that statement can never be true. I find it hard to believe that this statement can't be true on some level. People get swayed by their emotions far to much nowadays. No one stops to think "what would we really be gaining from this?" No one will be brought back from killing murderers, it won't ease the pain of the victims family any more then locking him up forever.

[H2O CatNip]

I'm impartial to this really, the death penalty is a very affective deterrent, saves the economy on money and such, but at the same time, when the deed is done and the person was really an innocent what now? Pretty much what we did there was cold-blooded murder. Took an innocent person who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time and murdered them. I really wish with all the evidence they receive they'd really get the right person every time, but just like any of us, they are just as human as us.

I do agree that Guantanamo Bay be closed, it'll be a way to tell these other countries that we want peace, of course it can us bite us in the butts as well. Yes, the world hates us, I know this for a fact. Being in the military, I've been spit on in other countries, because of what I represent. Heck even when I was in England there were a few English peeps that thought that I was going to be a jerk, because the Americans they met online were jerks. Something as small as that made them believe that all Americans were the same way. I see it all the time, a majority of us are jerks, and the world hates us for it. Even something as small as playing on xbox live with people out of our country getting all racial and do the name calling thing. It's really immature, these things affect our image. Our economy is in a crappy status, we are loud and spoiled. As much as it pains me and how much I love my country, we are shooting ourselves in the foot. So maybe closing the camp will start the peace that we've been looking for, it will take time if it does happen, but being the pawn that I am all I can do is shut up and hope for the best. Lol...

[PMS Hollyw00d]

What can be said?

We live in a corrupt world, with corrupt people, with corrupt ideas, and corrupt morals.
What else is new?

[H2O Phury]

What can be said?

We live in a corrupt world, with corrupt people, with corrupt ideas, and corrupt morals.
What else is new?

Exactly why we should have a mindset to change that way of thinking. Saying "oh well the world sucks what can we do?" Is again a defeatist attitude.

[PMS Hollyw00d]

Exactly why we should have a mindset to change that way of thinking. Saying "oh well the world sucks what can we do?" Is again a defeatist attitude.

Jesse I love you to death but I can't post anywhere on anything without you finding a way to shoot me down......please let me keep alittle bit of pride:mvgiggle:

[H2O Phury]

Jesse I love you to death but I can't post anywhere on anything without you finding a way to shoot me down......please let me keep alittle bit of pride:mvgiggle:

Dork, I was just addressing what you posted. It's never anything personal, just trying shed some light on, in what I believe to be a better way of thinking.

[PMS Solincia]

They captured them... and put them into a small square cage. They were crammed in there, several, perhaps dozens. They cut off their limbs, their feet. They cut off their mouths so they couldn't speak.
When the time drew near, they were taken, forcibly, helpless... and then, their heads were chopped off, and the skin was torn from their lifeless bodies.

They rounded them up. Made them stand for hours upon hours on the hard concrete, standing in their own feces, eating scraps of their own flesh.
When the time drew near, they were forced, against their will, strapped up by their legs.... Hanging there. Helpless. Full of life, full of fear. Not knowing what was coming for them. Until the end came, when they drove a metal stake through their brain. Lifeless, they were chopped to bits.

These are two examples of Cruel and Unusual punishment. These are two examples of torture and the inhumane.

Unfortunately, these are two examples of how we get our Chicken Nuggets and Happy Meal cheeseburgers that we feed our children.

Perhaps we should start at home with our convictions on cruelty, perhaps it would make us a better people--a better society. Perhaps we wouldn't need so many prisons, and jails, and perhaps we wouldn't need to have this conversation.

Perhaps.

[k1d 650]

They captured them... and put them into a small square cage. They were crammed in there, several, perhaps dozens. They cut off their limbs, their feet. They cut off their mouths so they couldn't speak.
When the time drew near, they were taken, forcibly, helpless... and then, their heads were chopped off, and the skin was torn from their lifeless bodies.

They rounded them up. Made them stand for hours upon hours on the hard concrete, standing in their own feces, eating scraps of their own flesh.
When the time drew near, they were forced, against their will, strapped up by their legs.... Hanging there. Helpless. Full of life, full of fear. Not knowing what was coming for them. Until the end came, when they drove a metal stake through their brain. Lifeless, they were chopped to bits.

These are two examples of Cruel and Unusual punishment. These are two examples of torture and the inhumane.

Unfortunately, these are two examples of how we get our Chicken Nuggets and Happy Meal cheeseburgers that we feed our children.




You cannot taste inhumanity and torture.

[k1d 650]

"Tastes like it died screaming." - Anthony Bourdain. One of my favorite TV hosts.

[PMS Solincia]

I can, and it tastes good... especially with some sweet and sour sauce from wendys

Somehow the theme song from the Dukes of Hazzard plays in my mind whenever I read one of your posts...

[naturaL)]

And i'm gunna say something about the 'God' thread only one thing....if there is a god and he loved us and is made of everything good and pure...he should not let such events happen to innocent people. please no one point this out...I don't want the thread being closed.


god granted humans a choice, which is a big mistake. sorry i don't think you've said anything there that would warrant a thread lock, unless self opinion is now a threat to our website.

[Righty is LAW]

god granted humans a choice, which is a big mistake. sorry i don't think you've said anything there that would warrant a thread lock, unless self opinion is now a threat to our website.

God granted humans choice. Would you love something that idled you without free will? Choices to do wrong and right make people grow, even if they make the incorrect choice. However, if someone knowingly makes an incorrect choice by (knowingly) cutting short someone else's life without valid reason (self-defense, someone on life support, inhumane to keep them living, etc) then they should face full punishment by law (eg. put to death).

In most cases I don't believe an eye for an eye law, however there are exceptions - a life for a life. When someone takes the life of a (good) person or people (like the UNC student body president in 2008 or Cho - killer of the 31 hokies at VT in 2007, had he lived) then they deserve to die. Every life is worth something but allowing a killer to live in the place of someone who would make the world a better place is completely backwards. Killers cut other people's lives short, therefore they deserve to have theirs cut short as well.

I have friends who were friends with some of the students that were killed in the VT shooting who are still not fully emotionally healed from the tragedy. They will not get within 10 yards of the building and hate going on campus around April 16. Killers do not deserve to belong in any sort of society, whether it be free world or in a maximum security prison because of the lives that they have ruined (victim and those who were close to the victim and anyone else who was involved).


People who kill know the potential consequences of their actions yet still choose kill. They get what they deserve, with the arguably humane lethal injections/fireing squad/etc.


A bit off topic but....I also think that there should be way harsher punishments for driving drunk like 3 months in jail for first offense and loss of license to drive for half a year after getting out. Not necessarily a death sentence if they kill someone while being drunk because technically they're not fully in control but at least 10 years in prison, less on good behavior. I've lost one friend due to drunk driving, my mom lost a friend who was walking right next to her down the street to a drunk truck driver and there was a family friend (and almost his 4-year-old daughter, she barely escaped a few fractured bones and cracked vertebrae) who were killed by a drunk driver. I think it's safe to say that the majority of people have lost someone that they know due to drunk driving (one of the most avoidable causes of death).... It's really tragic.

[H2O Phury]

God granted humans choice. Would you love something that idled you without free will? Choices to do wrong and right make people grow, even if they make the incorrect choice. However, if someone knowingly makes an incorrect choice by (knowingly) cutting short someone else's life without valid reason (self-defense, someone on life support, inhumane to keep them living, etc) then they should face full punishment by law (eg. put to death).

In most cases I don't believe an eye for an eye law, however there are exceptions - a life for a life. When someone takes the life of a (good) person or people (like the UNC student body president in 2008 or Cho - killer of the 31 hokies at VT in 2007, had he lived) then they deserve to die. Every life is worth something but allowing a killer to live in the place of someone who would make the world a better place is completely backwards. Killers cut other people's lives short, therefore they deserve to have theirs cut short as well.

I have friends who were friends with some of the students that were killed in the VT shooting who are still not fully emotionally healed from the tragedy. They will not get within 10 yards of the building and hate going on campus around April 16. Killers do not deserve to belong in any sort of society, whether it be free world or in a maximum security prison because of the lives that they have ruined (victim and those who were close to the victim and anyone else who was involved).


People who kill know the potential consequences of their actions yet still choose kill. They get what they deserve, with the arguably humane lethal injections/fireing squad/etc.


A bit off topic but....I also think that there should be way harsher punishments for driving drunk like 3 months in jail for first offense and loss of license to drive for half a year after getting out. Not necessarily a death sentence if they kill someone while being drunk because technically they're not fully in control but at least 10 years in prison, less on good behavior. I've lost one friend due to drunk driving, my mom lost a friend who was walking right next to her down the street to a drunk truck driver and there was a family friend (and almost his 4-year-old daughter, she barely escaped a few fractured bones and cracked vertebrae) who were killed by a drunk driver. I think it's safe to say that the majority of people have lost someone that they know due to drunk driving (one of the most avoidable causes of death).... It's really tragic.
Yes it's tragic but that's life. I've had friends who had family killed and it sucks but killing that person won't do any good to anyone. I don't understand how it's logical to say "When someone takes the life of a (good) person or people then they deserve to die." How does them being good have anything to do with it? Who's to judge who is and is not good? What if they take the life of a "bad" person? Should they have the same or less judgment? "good" and "bad" are just words we made. Nothing is inherently wrong or right.

[naturaL)]

God granted humans choice. Would you love something that idled you without free will? Choices to do wrong and right make people grow, even if they make the incorrect choice. However, if someone knowingly makes an incorrect choice by (knowingly) cutting short someone else's life without valid reason (self-defense, someone on life support, inhumane to keep them living, etc) then they should face full punishment by law (eg. put to death).

yes well i think mistake was the wrong word. in the sense of "if there is a god and he loved us and is made of everything good and pure...he should not let such events happen to innocent people." although i do agree that innocent people don't deserve any of that treatment, it would somewhat be a mistake. i was simply trying to explain the concept behind this logic. but as a whole of course not, choice to choose.... its marvelous although as a human race we are pretty broken. . . i totally agree the choice of right and wrong make people grow. well . . . sadly sometimes the choices us humans make will never have an explanation... except in the terms of using that as an explanation. FTL.

[Famous]

god granted humans a choice, which is a big mistake. sorry i don't think you've said anything there that would warrant a thread lock, unless self opinion is now a threat to our website.

You offended me!!! HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! j.k I <3 you

[PMS Strawberry]

I don't understand how it's logical to say "When someone takes the life of a (good) person or people then they deserve to die." How does them being good have anything to do with it? Who's to judge who is and is not good? What if they take the life of a "bad" person? Should they have the same or less judgment? "good" and "bad" are just words we made. Nothing is inherently wrong or right.

I agree. But to me there are some differences in certain situations.

[Do You Disco]

There may be, but what is achieved through killing that person? The victims aren't brought back to life, the family will not suddenly be absolved of the pain from losing their loved ones. The death penalty achieves absolutely nothing, it's simply malicious. On top of that, I don't understand the underlying sentiment of the death penalty, "killing is bad. But if ya kill someone, we'll kill you." It's backwards logic no?

[H2O Phury]

I agree. But to me there are some differences in certain situations.

How so? Human life /=/ Human life. One persons life is not equal to another. Death penalty as a crime deterrent isn't really that great of a argument to me either. The way I see it, people who have the mindset to knowingly commit a crime wrong enough to warrant a death sentence will not second guess themselves because of that. It's not a secret, whoever is going to commit these crimes knowingly are well aware of the consequences. Most common cases stem from being mentally unstable. Whether it be schizophrenia, depression, "heat of passion" killings. Most of the time it's more complicated scarring of the mind from their past.(abuse, molestation, ect..) So usually they either know what they are doing and are prepared for the consequences or are mentally unstable.

Which is another reason to keep them alive. We could learn so much more from the mind of a mentally unstable killer. Maybe come up with preventive counseling for people with common circumstances. Perhaps find a way to help them stabilize their thought process.

Even the ones who knowingly commit these heinous crimes deserve to live, even if it's in solitary confinement.

[H2O Timberwolf]

killing is ok in certian circumstances, in a kill or be killed circumstance it is ok, and if you rather die then kill to save your own life, you have no regard for your own life

[H2O Phury]

killing is ok in certian circumstances, in a kill or be killed circumstance it is ok, and if you rather die then kill to save your own life, you have no regard for your own life

This, I will actually agree with. But the question was about the death penalty, not killing in general.

[H2O Timberwolf]

to answer this question ya need to have it happen to ya. like until someone kills one of your loved ones you can never answer this question truthfully b/c until you walk a mile in those shows. you dont know what its like.

[Righty is LAW]

Yes it's tragic but that's life. I've had friends who had family killed and it sucks but killing that person won't do any good to anyone. I don't understand how it's logical to say "When someone takes the life of a (good) person or people then they deserve to die." How does them being good have anything to do with it? Who's to judge who is and is not good? What if they take the life of a "bad" person? Should they have the same or less judgment? "good" and "bad" are just words we made. Nothing is inherently wrong or right.

Hence why "good" was in parenthesis.... Good being innocent/defenseless/not deserving of a premature death. I should have further clarified myself but it was ~1:30 am when I posted lol. Good and bad are ideas that we have set as a society. By looking at a person's life and how they lived it, typically anyone will have an opinion on what kind of person they were.

One horrible decision and one action can say a lot about a person and their values. A lot of people have thought about killing someone but there's the reasoning that either they're in the wrong to go through with it or they don't want to die themselves yet that stops them. I have no sympathy for people who murder, the world is better off without them. By using the argument of "a previous wrong doing in their life could have caused them to do murder" then almost anyone could use that for anything. "I'm sorry professor for cheating on this exam but someone had copied my homework earlier so I thought it was okay to do." I would know it was wrong but would do it regardless? There's no way my professor would let me get off and not have to make an appearance in front of the honor code committee.

Most people who kill know that they are doing wrong regardless, yes, tragic events can make people more likely to be a wrongdoer later in life; if they don't know what they're doing then there's the claiming of temporarily insanity defense.... I do realize that there is such a thing as temporarily insanity but typically this is not the case of murderers who are put on death row. The I have been wronged before therefore I should be able to do wrong without punishment argument is completely.

[H2O Phury]

Hence why "good" was in parenthesis.... Good being innocent/defenseless/not deserving of a premature death. I should have further clarified myself but it was ~1:30 am when I posted lol. Good and bad are ideas that we have set as a society. By looking at a person's life and how they lived it, typically anyone will have an opinion on what kind of person they were.

One horrible decision and one action can say a lot about a person and their values. A lot of people have thought about killing someone but there's the reasoning that either they're in the wrong to go through with it or they don't want to die themselves yet that stops them. I have no sympathy for people who murder, the world is better off without them. By using the argument of "a previous wrong doing in their life could have caused them to do murder" then almost anyone could use that for anything. "I'm sorry professor for cheating on this exam but someone had copied my homework earlier so I thought it was okay to do." I would know it was wrong but would do it regardless? There's no way my professor would let me get off and not have to make an appearance in front of the honor code committee.

Most people who kill know that they are doing wrong regardless, yes, tragic events can make people more likely to be a wrongdoer later in life; if they don't know what they're doing then there's the claiming of temporarily insanity defense.... I do realize that there is such a thing as temporarily insanity but typically this is not the case of murderers who are put on death row. The I have been wronged before therefore I should be able to do wrong without punishment argument is completely.

It's less the fact that someone wronged them in the past, it's more that that wronging caused them severe mental instability. Having someone cheat off isn't in correlation to you deciding to cheat. Whereas mental instability is in correlation to the murder.

Now by the "the world is better off without them" How exactly is the world (by which I assume you mean society) benefiting from their death? and how would life in prison have any different effect on the world.

Thirdly I would like to ask you something. Lets say 2 men without a previous law infraction killed 1 person each.
Man A. killed a nun who fed the homeless and read to children every week. Because he wanted her to marry him but she refused.

Man B. killed a man for vengeance, who beat his wife and kid, has killed someone himself by drunk driving, and was a pedophile.

Should both of the murderers have equal punishment?


to answer this question ya need to have it happen to ya. like until someone kills one of your loved ones you can never answer this question truthfully b/c until you walk a mile in those shows. you dont know what its like.

How can you honestly say that? You imply that this should alter my opinion on the matter in more correct way. In actuality it would cloud most anyone's judgment on the matter. First you would be projecting your own horrible memory into the question at hand, which would make it hard for most people to be objective. Secondly you would be confusing just consequences with vengeance. It would take a very level headed, rational person to not give a bias answer to the question.

[Righty is LAW]

It's less the fact that someone wronged them in the past, it's more that that wronging caused them severe mental instability. Having someone cheat off isn't in correlation to you deciding to cheat. Whereas mental instability is in correlation to the murder.
Mental instability can be helped prior to murdering someone. It's not okay for anyone to murder, mental instability or not; however that's why the temporary insanity law is in place. Killing one person when someone has a blatant mental instability probably won't put them on death row, but from what you're saying it sounds like they shouldn't be punished at all and should just be put into rehab?

Now by the "the world is better off without them" How exactly is the world (by which I assume you mean society) benefiting from their death? and how would life in prison have any different effect on the world.
If you asked me that question then I have the right to ask how is anyone benefiting by keeping them alive? Killing someone who had killed countless people is closure to a lot of people. There's always the very very very small chance that the person could escape....

Thirdly I would like to ask you something. Lets say 2 men without a previous law infraction killed 1 person each.
Man A. killed a nun who fed the homeless and read to children every week. Because he wanted her to marry him but she refused.

Man B. killed a man for vengeance, who beat his wife and kid, has killed someone himself by drunk driving, and was a pedophile.

Should both of the murderers have equal punishment?


How can you honestly say that? You imply that this should alter my opinion on the matter in more correct way. In actuality it would cloud most anyone's judgment on the matter. First you would be projecting your own horrible memory into the question at hand, which would make it hard for most people to be objective. Secondly you would be confusing just consequences with vengeance. It would take a very level headed, rational person to not give a bias answer to the question.

Man A should have known that nuns don't get married and should have foreseen his rejection and therefore not been seeking vengeance for it lol.... in all seriousness I said that I do not believe an eye for an eye (like I said in a previous post, but I do believe in a life for a life if it is murder).

Man B should have gone the proper course via law enforcement and should have known better, however he probably knew the outcome of his actions and therefore was willing to make himself a martyr (still not the correct thing for society but the correct thing for him in his mind).

That being said, I don't believe all murders are equal. That's why some people are put on death row while others are given a double life sentence or whatever. Death row is for the worst of the worst. You could compare a wife killing her wife beating husband in self defense to .... Saddam Hussein. Murderer 1 =/= Murderer 2. And also that's why there's a jury and a judge, to decide the consequence based upon mental stability, severity of the murder and past actions.

[DejaVu PMS]

I agree with many of the points stated herein but I don't think I will give my opinion simply because I am a bit biased as far as the death penalty goes. It's a long story and not for the forums.

This thread is going well and I am happy to see that. I hope everyone continues to discuss this in a mature and civilized manner.

[H2O Phury]

Mental instability can be helped prior to murdering someone. It's not okay for anyone to murder, mental instability or not; however that's why the temporary insanity law is in place. Killing one person when someone has a blatant mental instability probably won't put them on death row, but from what you're saying it sounds like they shouldn't be punished at all and should just be put into rehab? Yes it can be helped but not everyone get's help. Temporary Insanity Laws don't help people who have underlying mental issues. Most use that for people who kill cheating spouses and women who kill their babies. Cases where a considerable lapse of judgment is believable. But for the ones who commit high-profile murders, whether it be mass shooting or terrorism(domestic or otherwise), arguing temporary insanity doesn't fly. Regardless of their mental health. Now I'm not conveying they be unpunished, life in prison is fine with me as long as it fits the crime. But I believe we could gain more by studying them and learning from things that caused the crime. Rather then just injecting them.

If you asked me that question then I have the right to ask how is anyone benefiting by keeping them alive? Killing someone who had killed countless people is closure to a lot of people. There's always the very very very small chance that the person could escape.... Closure to what degree? I have a hard time believing it would give anyone real closure. Like I've stated in another post, the victims are not brought back, they don't get to see them again, they remain dead. As cold as that sounds it's the truth. To be honest society doesn't gain anything tangible by keeping them alive, but in my opinion it would help us progress as a society, showing everyone's life, regardless of what they may have done is worth something. Showing killing someone will not solve anything.

That being said, I don't believe all murders are equal. That's why some people are put on death row while others are given a double life sentence or whatever. Death row is for the worst of the worst. You could compare a wife killing her wife beating husband in self defense to .... Saddam Hussein. Murderer 1 =/= Murderer 2. And also that's why there's a jury and a judge, to decide the consequence based upon mental stability, severity of the murder and past actions. In my opinion, self defense /=/ murder. I also find it hard to leave life and death decisions in the hands of 12 people who are most likely brain dead.

[Righty is LAW]

Yes it can be helped but not everyone get's help. Temporary Insanity Laws don't help people who have underlying mental issues. Most use that for people who kill cheating spouses and women who kill their babies. Cases where a considerable lapse of judgment is believable. But for the ones who commit high-profile murders, whether it be mass shooting or terrorism(domestic or otherwise), arguing temporary insanity doesn't fly. Regardless of their mental health. Now I'm not conveying they be unpunished, life in prison is fine with me as long as it fits the crime. But I believe we could gain more by studying them and learning from things that caused the crime. Rather then just injecting them.

Closure to what degree? I have a hard time believing it would give anyone real closure. Like I've stated in another post, the victims are not brought back, they don't get to see them again, they remain dead. As cold as that sounds it's the truth. To be honest society doesn't gain anything tangible by keeping them alive, but in my opinion it would help us progress as a society, showing everyone's life, regardless of what they may have done is worth something. Showing killing someone will not solve anything.

In my opinion, self defense /=/ murder. I also find it hard to leave life and death decisions in the hands of 12 people who are most likely brain dead.

Whens the last time that you've been to a prison to watch what non-law abiding citizens do in their spare time? Psychologists know how to help people who have potential to kill someone but are useless if they're seen in the aftermath. Psychology breakthroughs ... come on when was the last psychology break through? You talk as though there's something to discover by studying human behavior. It's not like it hasn't been identified recently or anything, in fact you stated quite a few causes for these psychological problems in one of your previous posts. Why not study how to correct a killer prior to him killing someone? I think that would be time better spent.

I don't like keeping someone alive who has no regard for someone else's life alive. As soon as they took someone else's right to live, they gave up their own.

[H2O Phury]

Whens the last time that you've been to a prison to watch what non-law abiding citizens do in their spare time? Psychologists know how to help people who have potential to kill someone but are useless if they're seen in the aftermath. Psychology breakthroughs ... come on when was the last psychology break through? You talk as though there's something to discover by studying human behavior. It's not like it hasn't been identified recently or anything, in fact you stated quite a few causes for these psychological problems in one of your previous posts. Why not study how to correct a killer prior to him killing someone? I think that would be time better spent. There is always more we can learn, and why not try to find a way to correct it while their in a secure environment where they can no longer hurt anyone? Rather then tracking down individuals who could possible have mental problems, they would have countless test subjects at their disposal. Then apply it to people who show signs of certain illnesses.

@ the bold: What's the difference? and by "but are useless if they're seen in the aftermath" are you implying it's impossible to help them, or that it's pointless?


I don't like keeping someone alive who has no regard for someone else's life alive. As soon as they took someone else's right to live, they gave up their own. That's most peoples position on the subject but i disagree. :)

[PMS Nitemare]

Just some interesting facts about the system:

There are approximately 1.5 million people in prison across the US. Of that about 3300 are on death row and approximately 20-30 are executed a year. It has been estimated that the total upkeep of a non death row inmate is over 20,000 a year, with costs slightly rising for those on death row because of extra security costs. What makes the Death Penalty more costly as a whole is the cost of litigation/appeals.

Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08

In 2002, the Supreme Court held in Atkins v. Virginia that it is unconstitutional to execute defendants with mental retardation.

[k1d 650]

Man A. killed a nun who fed the homeless and read to children every week. Because he wanted her to marry him but she refused.

Man B. killed a man for vengeance, who beat his wife and kid, has killed someone himself by drunk driving, and was a pedophile.

Should both of the murderers have equal punishment?


Yes.

[PMS Killer Kitty]

This may sound hypocritical, as I am pro-death penalty, but against torture. I used to be for torture, but this quote rang true to me from the time I heard it: "The strong will resist, and the weak will say anything to stop the pain."

[H2O Phury]

Yes.

YAY another person got it right.

[CrazyLSU]

Yes.

I second that! Personally the pedophile should be killed first in my book.

[k1d 650]

I mean, in both of those situations, the killers had other options to go through. They knew what they were doing was wrong.

[H2O Phury]

I mean, in both of those situations, the killers had other options to go through. They knew what they were doing was wrong.

It was a question to see if people (Righty in this case) thought a victims personality/actions had any bearing on the case.

[H2O Creation]

Now by the "the world is better off without them" How exactly is the world (by which I assume you mean society) benefiting from their death? and how would life in prison have any different effect on the world.


I presume that society would be better off because it costs alot less for the state to kill someone through execution then it would be to keep them in a state prison for the rest of their life.

[Do You Disco]

It's actually the opposite.

[H2O Phury]

Well if saving money is the best reason for it, then they could do 1000 of things instead. i.e. Releasing non-violent drug users, do you know how much that would save?

[H2O Creation]

It's actually the opposite.

it costs around 20,000 dollars to house an inmate on a life sentence. its the same for someone on death row but the cost for appeals and court fee's it elavates to 200,000. so yes you are right. but the i did presume.

[PMS Strawberry]

I know this is a little off topic but I just wanna say i'm really impressed by what everyone has to say. I've read every post in this thread and have thought almost each post is as interesting as the next...

Thanks guys for taking part in this and voicing your opinion. I really do appreciate it. :D

[PMS Nitemare]

That doesn't include anything concerning the appeals they are allowed, the extra time death penalty trials take, etc. drugs are but a drop in the bucket when compared to the overall cost.


That's why above that I said trials/appeals, extra security increases the cost. The cost is all also dependent on the state a murder trial in Texas compared to somewhere like Alaska is totally different. I put the cost because many people think that the actual cost to put someone to death (ie drugs) is greater than that of housing them in a jail cell.

[naturaL)]

I know this is a little off topic but I just wanna say i'm really impressed by what everyone has to say. I've read every post in this thread and have thought almost each post is as interesting as the next...

Thanks guys for taking part in this and voicing your opinion. I really do appreciate it.



yay for our opinions (:. kind of miss posting on a regular basis o-o

[Ruin PMS]

Not true, it costs more to put someone to death.

In what state? It actually costs more day by day to keep a prisoner. Count in around $30 a day each prisoner. Tab up $80 for one execution.

[PMS Hollyw00d]

Honestly if I were a serial killer and I was sentenced to life in prison I think I'd rather take the death penalty. Who wants to spend their life in prison, I know I don't.. O.o

[PMS Strawberry]

apparently, the lethal injection they use is extremely painful for the prisoners....just saying because yeah it's not how they killed their victims but it does hurt.

[Ruin PMS]

Comparing self defense in equivelance to murder? Far fetched. The right to bear arms wouldn't be given if that was the case.

When I was younger I was appalled and against the death penalty. Being placed in life situations where I've had mere seconds to make a decision has changed that. There's no amount of temporary insanity that I value as fair when concerning serial killers, rapists, molesters, and the like.

When faced under pressure, your quickest reaction will be your first. Whether you use your brain and consider- is the entirety of the difference between murder and life.

Criminal reform? I'm sorry because I actually pay taxes- although this has nothing to do with tax payers money, but I don't agree with even more money spent on reforming someone who committed a heinous crime. Why?

Keeping in mind that:
-The average age of serial killers (by the time they have committed their first murder) is 28 years.
-The average age of sexual offenders is 31 years.

In 30 years on this planet, if you refuse/cannot learn the difference between right and wrong, act as a complete hedonist whether you're breaking the law and/or effecting society negatively (by committing murder) I don't feel we should take the time nor effort to reform someone after the fact.

30 years.

In argument, it's been stated we could use the study of convicts with regards to mental illness to help prevent the fact. Maybe instead of studying criminals guilty of homicide we could study the demographics of countries with far less homicides being committed.

America sees about 17,000 murders a year. Let's check our neighbors in (Canada) at about 600 murders per year. It has nothing to do with population, the US per capita would rank in over .4 murders per 1000 people. Canada .01 per 1000 people.

Keeping convicts alive who have committed heinous crimes doesn't seem to be working.

However, it will be an eternal argument whether capitol punishment is wrong religiously or morally. If you're guilty of a violent crime such as murder and it can be deemed as homicide or a heinous act- sorry, that's inhumane. Rights are stripped and if you're sitting Row, let's push it through already.

Don't do the crime, if you're not willing to do the time.

[EWW]

well I now if someone killed one of my loved ones I would want them to suffer and feel my pain but its wrong to kill someone for killing someone else just to show them its wrong...so i would rather lock you away in a room by yourself for the rest of your life now as for Closing of Guantanamo Bay all i know is that place held some serious terrorist that I would be afraid to let go

[Do You Disco]

apparently, the lethal injection they use is extremely painful for the prisoners....just saying because yeah it's not how they killed their victims but it does hurt.

Lethal injection sounds "humane," but in reality, it's one the most painful, torturous ways to be put to death.

[PMS Strawberry]

About the lethal injection, I think its perfectly adequate for the prisoners...they don't need to be hanged or killed the way they killed. There has been many controversies on how painful it is and the process in itself seems just...wrong.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5059/inje.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/inje.jpg/)
Witnesses including family members watch as the prisoners are injected.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8461/jecv.jpg (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/jecv.jpg/)

[H2O Phury]

Comparing self defense in equivelance to murder? Far fetched. The right to bear arms wouldn't be given if that was the case. Who claimed it to be equal? (i must of read over it) In my opinion this is correct. Self defense is NOT murder.

When I was younger I was appalled and against the death penalty. Being placed in life situations where I've had mere seconds to make a decision has changed that. There's no amount of temporary insanity that I value as fair when concerning serial killers, rapists, molesters, and the like. In one of my other posts I made the point that people who do crimes like these aren't mentally alright. So it wouldn't be fair to compare the way a smart rational person(you) thinks and their way of thinking.

Criminal reform? I'm sorry because I actually pay taxes- although this has nothing to do with tax payers money, but I don't agree with even more money spent on reforming someone who committed a heinous crime. Why?

Keeping in mind that:
-The average age of serial killers (by the time they have committed their first murder) is 28 years.
-The average age of sexual offenders is 31 years. Age should have nothing to do with wanting to help sick people. And yes in my opinion most of them are "sick" in some sense.

In 30 years on this planet, if you refuse/cannot learn the difference between right and wrong, act as a complete hedonist whether you're breaking the law and/or effecting society negatively (by committing murder) I don't feel we should take the time nor effort to reform someone after the fact. That is the point of helping them. They may not have the mental capacity to learn that in normal society. Again if they are deemed mentally unfit we cannot set standards for them, which require you to understand things that they obviously don't.


In argument, it's been stated we could use the study of convicts with regards to mental illness to help prevent the fact. Maybe instead of studying criminals guilty of homicide we could study the demographics of countries with far less homicides being committed. We can't do both?

America sees about 17,000 murders a year. Let's check our neighbors in (Canada) at about 600 murders per year. It has nothing to do with population, the US per capita would rank in over .4 murders per 1000 people. Canada .01 per 1000 people.

Keeping convicts alive who have committed heinous crimes doesn't seem to be working. I could use the same argument and say killing them doesn't seem to be work either. In actuality neither would have a impact on the rate of murders in the country.

However, it will be an eternal argument whether capitol punishment is wrong religiously or morally. If you're guilty of a violent crime such as murder and it can be deemed as homicide or a heinous act- sorry, that's inhumane. Rights are stripped and if you're sitting Row, let's push it through already.

Don't do the crime, if you're not willing to do the time. Sadly some of them can't help doing the crime.

[Ruin PMS]

..Age should have nothing to do with wanting to help sick people. And yes in my opinion most of them are "sick" in some sense..

..Sadly some of them can't help doing the crime.

It has nothing to do with age, the reason I stated those facts was to show the average age in terms of adulthood. Meaning, yes- a six year old may not understand why it's wrong do to something. But they are taught. In 30 years they haven't been taught or refuse to learn?

If people can't help but commit a heinous crime, then what's the point of reform? Humans are hardly different than any other species on Earth. You can plant an apple tree and pluck 100 juicy reds and some apples just rot right off the tree.

Do you feel the need to refrigerate the rotten apple and try to save it? I just throw it away or bury it so my dog doesn't try to eat it.

You could try to cut the rot from the core, but even with every bite you take in the back of your head you think, wow I hope this doesn't get me sick. Is it worth the risk? Do we want to waste time and money trying to reform someone when they may just outplay the system and commit the same crime again?

Not at my cost. Again, taxes are a huge supplement to the prison/reform systems. I pay and have paid so many taxes it's not even funny. It's nice to hear psychologists and doctors talk about how taxpayers money should be spent on systems that directly phatten their pockets. Same goes for people who don't pay taxes and don't vote every two years either.

[H2O Phury]

It has nothing to do with age, the reason I stated those facts was to show the average age in terms of adulthood. Meaning, yes- a six year old may not understand why it's wrong do to something. But they are taught. In 30 years they haven't been taught or refuse to learn? Which shows some sort of illness. You can't fault some of them for their lack of brains.

If people can't help but commit a heinous crime, then what's the point of reform? Humans are hardly different than any other species on Earth. You can plant an apple tree and pluck 100 juicy reds and some apples just rot right off the tree.

Do you feel the need to refrigerate the rotten apple and try to save it? I just throw it away or bury it so my dog doesn't try to eat it.

You could try to cut the rot from the core, but even with every bite you take in the back of your head you think, wow I hope this doesn't get me sick. Is it worth the risk? Do we want to waste time and money trying to reform someone when they may just outplay the system and commit the same crime again? So you're comparing human beings to...apples? People who have thoughts, dreams, fears, artistic talents ect... To apples? There is no way I can honestly take that seriously. It's like comparing the value of my life to a spoon. Regardless of what I've done in my life, that murderer and I are equal.


Not at my cost. Again, taxes are a huge supplement to the prison/reform systems. I pay and have paid so many taxes it's not even funny. It's nice to hear psychologists and doctors talk about how taxpayers money should be spent on systems that directly phatten their pockets. Same goes for people who don't pay taxes and don't vote every two years either.
You also pay for the captivity of non-violent drug users and people who are blatantly racially profiled. Don't you also disagree with them?

[Ruin PMS]

Its not a true comparison, just a metaphor. Unfortunately this debate isn't about whether non-violent drug offenders belong in jail or not.

I'm sorry you feel like a spoon! :)

[PMS Nitemare]

apparently, the lethal injection they use is extremely painful for the prisoners....just saying because yeah it's not how they killed their victims but it does hurt.


In lethal injection they should not feel anything. It is a cocktail of three different mixtures/drugs. The first drug they are given depending on the state I think, but in California I know they are given anesthetic to put them to sleep, then given a combo of two drugs that when mixed is highly lethal, that slows down breathing and stops the heart.

[PMS Strawberry]

Unfortunately this debate isn't about whether non-violent drug offenders belong in jail or not.




Why not? I didn't make this thread to have rules :) I made it for any and EVERY opinion people have to express. The title is Justice: What's the Right thing to do? Does it do them justice to put them in jail? They belong in rehab.

[PMS Androgynous]

Death Penalty - both. But mostly it's wrong.

We as humans don't possess the necessary objectivity needed to be able to make that accurate judgment. Should one murderer have the same punishment as another murderer? There was a woman who killed her two sons because they asked her to kill them if they ever developed the same painful disease that killed their father. Somebody who kills for mercy deserves a different punishment than somebody who kills out of anger or hatred.

Also, while killing somebody is indeed a horrible crime (depending on the terms of the death) it shouldn't be punishable by death.

Some people think that murderers, rapists, child abusers, etc. should have to bear the same punishment that they inflicted on their victims - but I think not.
People can be educated through words, through environment, through experience. Not that anybody would be given limitless chances.

When you kill a person, it doesn't only affect the victim and the murder, it affects the family as well.
If the family did nothing wrong, why should they have to suffer a loss too?

The thing about the justice system in the world is that it's more about retaliation than balance - slap me, slap you - that sort of thing.

Although, everything is a phase. If the death penalty is legalized everywhere, then we will learn from it.
If it is banned everywhere, we will learn from it.
Everything that we go through on Earth serves as a learning purpose so that we can learn from our mistakes and live in peace in the future.

Unfortunately, after reading through some of the posts, I get the impression that some people believe that this matter is about tax money. No - it's about much more than that. It's like medicine, you can't manufacture and distribute it until you know the production costs, the psychological effects, the scientific reasoning, the target population (in this case the entire human population), and the exact same replicated results.
We can't just approach a matter this serious from one side, we have to make an assessment and then properly determine the most efficient way to act.

[H2O Phury]

Its not a true comparison, just a metaphor. Unfortunately this debate isn't about whether non-violent drug offenders belong in jail or not.

I'm sorry you feel like a spoon! :)

Just showing you pay taxes for other things you don't believe in, so there shouldn't be a difference here.

We as humans don't possess the necessary objectivity needed to be able to make that accurate judgment. Should one murderer have the same punishment as another murderer? There was a woman who killed her two sons because they asked her to kill them if they ever developed the same painful disease that killed their father. Somebody who kills for mercy deserves a different punishment than somebody who kills out of anger or hatred. I find a distinct difference in the 2 scenarios you put, I honestly don't believe the first one is murder. Much like how I believe self defense isn't murder, If said boys were old enough to decide for themselves, they should have the right to end their own lives. That woman shouldn't be considered a murderer in my eyes.

[naturaL)]

not so sure about family members watching as they're injected. thats a little over board.

[PMS Strawberry]

^^^that is my only problem with the penalty....things like that are really sad and make me question it sometimes..

[PMS Strawberry]

Exactly. I dont feel confident in anyone to decide the life or death of other people based on "facts" that only portray part of the situation.

no Logic! don't you dare change my views!!! I see them changing...NOOOO!!!!

I just have a problem with how inhumane the situation and even the entire process of it, for that matter, not just the injection. I read up on how every little detail is done...It's sad.

[xKanuck]

well i think the penelty is just, but i think they should ike mab let him sit in jail for atleast a year after eerything is done... to let any facts they might have missed rise up soo we dont have any of these situations

[PMS Strawberry]

well i think the penelty is just, but i think they should ike mab let him sit in jail for atleast a year after eerything is done... to let any facts they might have missed rise up soo we dont have any of these situations

I might be having a dumb Livie moment.... but I'm not sure what you mean...let them sit in jail for a year after....they've decided upon the death penalty for the prisoner? Because if that is the case people are on death row for YEARS. Some people die even before they reach their time to get the penalty.

[Gypsyfly PMS]

Admin FYI...we're NOT (http://www.pmsclan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33034) doing debate threads, discussion/opinion is fine.

Debate=Looking for an argument<---Not ok
Discussion=Looking for opinions and feedback<---OK

[Famous]

Admin FYI...we're NOT (http://www.pmsclan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33034) doing debate threads, discussion/opinion is fine.

Debate=Looking for an argument<---Not ok
Discussion=Looking for opinions and feedback<---OK

You want do debate on how discussions can lead to a debate??? ;)

[PMS Strawberry]

It way too easy for a 'discussion' thread to become a 'debate' thread....not all debates are inappropriate arguements. They can be a discussion of the pros and cons of an issue without it having to be heated. Debates take place in a classroom full of minors and Debate classes are offered in college as a GE course. I find debates perfectly appropriate for an environment like here. Especially since we know our limits on these forums and we've been playing nicely of course. :D

[Gypsyfly PMS]

You want do debate on how discussions can lead to a debate??? ;)

Want a temp ban :mvwink:

lol there are only a few admins/mods to "baby-sit" these type of threads. However much I love mature threads (hence the reason we even currently allow "Opinion|Discussion" threads) it just takes the time we don't have to read and watch all of them considering the many other private sections that not all forum and clan members see.

Trust me, being here 6 years I've seen the evolution of what we can and cannot do and what is just easier for us. This is a private forum and as such we can remove whatever. Sometimes, you'll get a courtesy PM, more often than not with the limited time we have for requests and such you probably won't lol. Don't take it personal though, we still love you, unless you're a huge pain in the butt:mvshakefist:

[PMS buckeye_chick]

I have split oppions on this. One one hand I say yes execution but only in extream cases and with multiple forms of evidence ( not circumstantial, or some one saw them in a dark ally for .2 sec. ) Basicly the ones who are caught in the act or with the bodies like jeffery dalhmer no doubt about the fact.

If there is only a circumstantial evidence no hard proof that beyond a doubt they did it I do not believe they should be put to death. It is too easy for a victim or witness to get things wrong or not remember things completely. Case in point when I was 19 a friend and I were robbed at gun point. I knew the people who robbed me I went to school with the one guys sister and played on the same high school basketball team as her. The other one used to come down to the local school and play pick up games with us durring the summer. I had the barrel of the gun jammed against my forhead and I can tell you there are so many things going through your mind at that point its hard to think you are more worried about your life then details. Long story short. When the cops came and started asking questions ( clothes, hair cuts, color of the car they were in, what type of gun was used, was the real or fake ect... ) You dont always remember. I remembered the licence plate number of the car make and model but when asked what color it was I said green and so did my friend. 2days later when shown pics of the car by the police that had the same licence plate number make and model to my surprise to was not green but Blue dark blue ( boy did I feel like an idiot ) and we both thought it was light green. I would have swore on my life 2 days earlier that the car was light green.

My experience showed me that people can be wrong. If I could mis a detail like a color of a car then so could some one else who just witnessed a murder and the cops be lookin for a guy in a green car when the murderer was actually in a bule one. Some one in the wrong place at the wrong time with a green car could be on trial for a murder he/she had nothing to do with.

Also Another thing I have struggled with is the kids who commit murder ( 14 and under ). Should an 11 year old or even an 8 year old be charged as an adult and face the death penalty for the killing some one? I know I have heard on the radio and the news in the past cupple of years of kids being charged as adults for these crimes. Doesn't make sence to me. How can a person under 18 be a minor in cases of adult minor relationships, but be an 8 year old be an adult if the kill some one?

So what about the heroine dealer that sells some one the drugs they OD on. DO they deserve to be exictued, they inavertantly took some ones life.

Charles Manson he was originally sentanced to death to have california over turn the death penalty. Manson never killed any one, he just brain washed people into doing it for him. Two of the girls who actually did the killing were released from prision one is dead now. Manson is the only cerial killer who never phisically killed anyone. These are just a few things I ponder when ever I hear the death penalty broght up.

[PMS buckeye_chick]

With that said, I would have less of a problem with the death penalty if it was used in cases with video proof, human remains found in private property, and other 100% certainty situations.

As for your experiance, I've been told that its very common for that type of thing to happen. It doesn't really suprise me that descriptions get messed up, do you think that the accurate information you gave was due in part to the fact that you knew the persons before the robbery?

Yes the 100% no way around it you did it with hard proof this is what I was tring to get at.

I have seen it to many times as soon as someone is arrested the whole world thinks thier guilty, the media puts their spin on it for ratings( newpaper, local news, ect.. ) I have even had people tell me if they get picked to be on a jury they would say guilty reguardless because innocent poeple dont get arrested ( but they do ). More and more it seems the innocent untill proven guilty has changed to guilty untill proven innocent, and dont get me started on the corupt prosecutors, judges, and police officials where I live. Also the fact that people are more likely receive a harsher sentance durring election years. Uggg I dont know I just dont have much faith in our judical system.

Also if I would not have know the people who robbed me I dont think I would have been able to give as accurate of a discription past the Gang tattoo on ones neck and the license plate of the vehicle. The fact I had went to High School with one and played basketball numerous times with the other I knew what there physical features were. I may not have been friends with them but I knew them and they knew me.

[VballChick PMS]

I too use to be for the death penalty. but with the many flaws in the legal system, too many innocent people are being murdered for crimes they didn't commit. Although on the flip side of things if someone is completely completely guilty is it worth our taz payers money to keep them in jail the rest of their lives while we could be using that money for more important things so I'm torn but for the most part I really couldnt give you a 100 percent yes or no :-/

[PMS Strawberry]

The case of Stanley Tookie Williams forced public reflection on the purpose of the death penalty:

-- Is the purpose of the death penalty to remove from society someone who would cause more harm?

-- Is the purpose to remove from society someone who is incapable of rehabilitation?

-- Is the purpose of the death penalty to deter others from committing murder?

-- Is the purpose of the death penalty to punish the criminal?

-- Is the purpose of the death penalty to take retribution on behalf of the victim?

[PMS AsianLotus]

I think sex offenders should get death penalty. Even if they don't at least they'll get raped in jail.

[PMS AsianLotus]

ja mon

[PMS buckeye_chick]

Sex offenders don't care about what they did wrong. Going to jail doesn't seem to make them want to stop. Maybe if they knew that they will get the death penalty it will make them stop. I care more about the lives of innocent children than the pathetic life of a perverted monster.


Sex offenders

* On a given day in 1994 there were approximately 234,000 offenders convicted of rape or sexual assault under the care, custody, or control of corrections agencies; nearly 60% of these sex offenders are under conditional supervision in the community.
* The median age of the victims of imprisoned sexual assaulters was less than 13 years old; the median age of rape victims was about 22 years.
* An estimated 24% of those serving time for rape and 19% of those serving time for sexual assault had been on probation or parole at the time of the offense for which they were in State prison in 1991.
* Of the 9,691 male sex offenders released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, 5.3% were rearrested for a new sex crime within 3 years of release.
* Of released sex offenders who allegedly committed another sex crime, 40% perpetrated the new offense within a year or less from their prison discharge.

Child victimizers

* Approximately 4,300 child molesters were released from prisons in 15 States in 1994. An estimated 3.3% of these 4,300 were rearrested for another sex crime against a child within 3 years of release from prison.
* Among child molesters released from prison in 1994, 60% had been in prison for molesting a child 13 years old or younger.
* Offenders who had victimized a child were on average 5 years older than the violent offenders who had committed their crimes against adults. Nearly 25% of child victimizers were age 40 or older, but about 10% of the inmates with adult victims fell in that age range.

Also...

* More than 50% of the women in jail said they had been physically or sexually abused in the past, compared to more than 10% of the men.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm

Ok what about the little girls who put thier setpfathers away just for the simple fact they dont like them.

Case in point My cousin's wife admits she lied about the fact that her step father molested her when she was 10 becasuse he wouldn't let her do what she wanted. Her mother divorced him and he spent 3 yrs in prision for something he did not even do. So by what you are saying he should have been killed for an act he did not commit??? She is now 38 and now regrets what she did.

Another point while I was in school I lived by two families that were foster parents. One of the families had a foster kid who use to brag at school and tell girls how to put there parents in jail for child abuse/ molestation. She said she had done it to her last foster father and had not even touched her. Her reason she wanted to go back to her parents. Didn't work. She was in foster care untill she was 18.

So here are 2 men that were centanced to prison for a crime they didn't commit. Their eleged victoms one bragging about the fact she put some one in jail the other emotionally scarred because she realised when she was older that she ruined someones life.

But hey who cares if we have a flawed judical system. Why dont we just kill them all. The shop lifters, drug dealers, tax evaders, con-artist. We don't need them around eathier. ( sarcasim )

[PMS AsianLotus]

What about the girls who didn't make it up?

[PMS buckeye_chick]

Exactly the judicial system is flawed but to standardise the death penalty for any offence I think is wrong. There to much of a chance that with out hard proof that a person could be innocent.

[PMS AsianLotus]

(x_x)

[Caboose11777]

Death penalty is the right thing. Why should taxpayers pay to keep a criminal alive in prison for life. It costs thousands for each person! And gitmo closing was sooooooooooo dumb! All of those terrorists are free to kill again!!!! STUPID BEYOND BELIEF! They released them because they got beat a couple times?! SO WHAT?! Would they treat our soldiers better if they were captured? Would they give them first class? Hell no! They murder or torture them and post it on the internet all the time! It's sick and twisted and we let them go to do it again and then they kill more because they were captured so we release a crap load of terrorist back to kill thousands more of us. What the hell is the world coming to?!

[Caboose11777]

hahahaha thats rich! a cost of a bullet isnt thousands of dollars!!!!!

[Caboose11777]

Whatever person said it costs more to kill someone needs education. A 10 cent bullet will do it. Keeping a murdering pig alive for life is projected to be $100,000 and thats for a couple years. Learn the facts

[Caboose11777]

This isnt a debate thread bro you need to chill. I'm stating common sense and you can get into the whole technical stats and pie charts whatever the fact still remains that it costs less and I didnt say anything about people being wrongly accused as you say i did so im going to say something about that too. Yes our system has problems because no system is perfect but you cant say its so flawed when it has put away so many wrightly accused and a small percentage is wrongly accused. I'm not saying that's acceptable, but you shouldnt say it's all the courts fault. It's the evidence. You can't change the evidence and the facts so it's the lawyers that are to blame if you are going to play the blame game. And my facts still show that life prison costs way more. No matter what the court is going to be involved so why would you mention that? It makes my point stronger by showing you don't know what you are talking about. No disrespect but seriously you need some common sense and try not to get your facts online because ANYONE can post ANYTHING online don't believe everything you hear.

[Caboose11777]

And dont post something from 2002 that's 7 years outdated

[Blue Rose PMS]

Keep it polite, Gentlemen.

[Amblix]

Whatever person said it costs more to kill someone needs education. A 10 cent bullet will do it. Keeping a murdering pig alive for life is projected to be $100,000 and thats for a couple years. Learn the facts

I can't say how dumbfounded I am by this statement.

Is it just ignorance? Or do you not realize it's much more then a '10 cent bullet'?

Why don't you go an learn the facts, before spewing what you think is factual?

You do know it's more of a go by the book thing, and not some guy with a revolver going around choosing whether or not a person is guilty right? If you think there are some problems now, and this is the mentality of how you think it is, I gotta say a perfect world to you would just be nonsensical.

--------------
I have no opinion on the death penalty or life in prison thing, and probably never will. But personally, the death penalty would get my support, because if I was placed in the situation, I'd rather take death then life of misery. Some would call it the easy way out.

[Caboose11777]

Keep it polite, Gentlemen.
Exactly what im trying to say. It's not a debate thread it's my opinion and like it or not you should respect it like I respect yours. I'm not here to troll or whatever it's my thoughts. I've talked to many highly educated people about this so i'm not alone in my thoughts. And no I don't think that people just go around executing people as you say. How's lethal injection? Is that less "evil" for you? I stated my thoughts and i'm not arguing so have a nice day! :D

[Blue Rose PMS]

Both sides of any argument can find experts and statistics, and shown by many people throughout this thread.

[H2O DropinBodys]

Personally, I believe that if someone murders or does something so horrendous they deserve to die. sure, everyone is born human....but if you think about it...humans are like the nastiest species on Earth. I watched a documentary and Soldiers in the Congo raped this pregnant women in front of her children...and after that they made her children step on her stomach....the soldiers got the barely developed baby out of her and made her children eat it in a bowl....they then killed them. See people who have no heart, no feelings, that bring an infinite amount of ignominy unlike normal human beings are a disgrace to the human race and shouldn't be alive.

Call me crazy but yes I do think some people are stuck in a human body that aren't really human. Some mutation in the brain..something went wrong in their way of thinking.

And i'm gunna say something about the 'God' thread only one thing....if there is a god and he loved us and is made of everything good and pure...he should not let such events happen to innocent people. please no one point this out...I don't want the thread being closed.

I agree fully, Why should Charles Manson live in prison, He's Derranged enough to never fully understand what he had done, But Death is the easy out, that point is true, Though its unconstitutional to use cruel and unusual punnishment, So Death is the best option to me, As for Gitmo I believe that what they did might have been wrong, but they had there reasons, Terrorisim is not fun, and honestly what we saw at 9/11 was nothing a few thousand people and all they did was take down a building, what they could do to us by either messing with our food or water, Is horrifing... it might not be right but sometimes doing the best thing for those around you isn't the easiest thing to do.

[H2O DropinBodys]

Oh Simple answer for the higher cost, Bring a 9MM and one shot to the head LMAO

sorry had to keep a part of it light.

[PMS Strawberry]

haha yea for sure!