The Philosophy Thread [Archive] - PMS

View Full Version : The Philosophy Thread

CaptainDemon

08-13-2006, 09:05 PM

I used to dabble in philosphy on the old forums, and I figured I might bring up some old topics for people to debate on. I'd like to think it wasn't spam so I posted it here. Here's a few topics I've used and my stance, feel free to discuss/debate any of them.

Please note that people will have differing opinions based on their personal feelings or religions. I do not condemn positive disagreement, but I will not tolerate those who try and force others to their way of thinking. If that happens I will have this thread removed.

Order/Chaos Thought: The premise for this idea stems for the belief that without a cause, there can be no effect. With no damage, there can be no healing. Basically, I think that some evils (war/competition/tragedies in general), while evil in themselves, are necessary for society to mature and evolve. Chaos shapes the world into what it is, and without it everything would stagnate, whereas Order keeps some level of civilization there, so that there is not annarchy.

Life after Death: My personal opinion on Life after Death isn't necessarily taken from any religion. I am loosely Christian so therefore I believe in Heaven and Hell, but I don't take these thoughts as literally as some might. I have combined a few other religions into my way of thinking, most notably Buddhism and Hinduism, for their thoughts on reincarnation. I think that life after death is simply new life, and the karma of the past life affects you in the new life, and that life is an unending cycle. If you look at nature, there is a cycle there too. That's where my belief stands that after you die, you are judged on your character and brought back as such.

I haven't time to remember anything else but if we can get past these controversial topics without flaming, that would be great. Just trying to keep everyone's wits smart and also offer people to share their opinion in a safe environment without fear of reproach.

diana3

08-14-2006, 12:26 AM

I think a nice topic to debate on would also be creationism, evolutionism, and intelligent design :)

I do believe in Life After death. I don't think that someone's mind can just be destroyed like that..

PMS GibGirl

08-14-2006, 03:47 PM

Re: Life after death

I've always put some stock in the idea of the simulation argument (http://www.simulation-argument.com/) - in a nutshell, the odds of us being the very first intelligent life in the universe is very small. If we assume that intelligent life doesn't always destroy itself early (which isn't a given - see the doomsday argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_argument)), and that at least one intelligent race would be interested in simulating intelligent life via computer, then it becomes incredibly likely that we are, in fact, existing in a computer simulation.

Not sure what this says about life after death, but who knows...

Then again, I also like the idea of quantum immortality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality) - that if the quantum "many-worlds" theory is correct, then each "decision" in the universe actually ends up spawning one world for each possible decision, meaning there are infinite worlds out there that are different from our own. And that when an event happens that could kill me, some worlds spawn where that does happen - but others spawn where I don't die, and because I can't experience being dead, I end up finding myself in one of the ones where I'm still alive. And this will go on forever - as long as there exists at least one quantum universe where I could be alive, no matter how unlikely it is, then I will find myself in that universe. Doesn't mean everyone else will never see me die - my existence isn't necessary for other people to live, so they can follow paths where I die - but that I will have to end up in one of them where I'm still alive.

Xenos

08-14-2006, 04:56 PM

Sir Tequila

08-14-2006, 07:04 PM

Life after Death: I don't think there is. Much like a computer you just turned off. It's there, but it ain't workin'.

As for "karma from past lives", I like classic rock. Does that mean I was a roadie for The Doobie Brothers tour? No, sadly.

Order and Chaos: I'll say what I've been saying for peace/war: "There is war to keep the peace, but not peace to keep the war." This could very easily go along with Order/Chaos. We have Order to stop Chaos from happening, but then again, there is Chaos to stop Order from happening, so my peace/war statement is killed.

Caulhon

08-14-2006, 07:11 PM

when you creat order you eliminate chaos because you eliminate some of the possiblilities for what can occur at any given time. true chaos is the possibility or existance of everything that ever could be or was or is occuring at the same time which is why chaos is a self defeating process because order is a possibility and will eventually occur within chaos and force it into a pattern with a set of rules.

Xenos

08-14-2006, 11:07 PM

but doesnt the chaos still existwithin the order just as the order is a possiblity of choas cant chaos still be a possibility for order. Personaly i always think of it as an empty desk. the desk appears to have order IE the molecules but if you get closer the atoms are rotating in chaotic patterns, so theres still chaos of some form in the order.

Maverick

08-14-2006, 11:21 PM

Okay a lot of these things are a lil too complicated for me heh.

I believe in life after death.
I believe in karma.
I don't believe in destiny or fate or predetermined actions by some outside force.
I believe each person is in control of their actions and responsible for their choices.
I don't like arguing about things like these and I'm glad people here are being mature and open-minded :]

Sometimes I like to say that God created everything and then evolution took over.. hehe. But I don't think I truly believe that.

CaptainDemon

08-14-2006, 11:42 PM

Excellent points, and I'm very glad we could get along without this turning controversial.

Let me try to discuss the many points brought up, I'm a bit lost :p

Creationism, Evolutionism, and Intelligent Design:

I only really understand Creationism and Evolutionism, but here's my logic on the subject, just tell me if I should be grouped into a certain category :p

I firmly believe that if there is a God (which I do believe there is, just many names for the same one), that all this God did was put up the chessboard and pieces of life, and we are all pawns. I think through advancement in our lives/evolution, we have upgraded to perhaps a knight, or maybe a castle. We don't know where we are in the universe, but I think God just made the blueprints, and let us go wild in our world pretty much.

Life After Death

Gib's thoughts/theories: I like the simulation theory, it does give another plausable possiblity, and if not already so perhaps we might be able to find immortality in machines in the future.

All I know from the Quantum Immortality is from that movie "The One," sadly. Science fiction lore aside, there existed many of the same people in different "lives." Of course in that movie it stated that if you kill off all your brethren then you become a God and the multiverse crashes, but I digress. I do know that if Quantum Immortality was an actuality there would be millions upon billions of otherworlds, given the fact that we make decisions, small and large, on a daily basis, and there would have to be one for every single person's decision. It would be a daunting prospect, but one could learn a lot about themselves that way :)

Xenos' thoughts/theories: Multiverse response: see above.

May I ask what religion you are? Not to pry, I'd like to just find a bit more about this "mass resurrection." I won't comment on something I know nothing about :p

Maybe I should have talked about war vs. peace in a different way. When I say Evil, I don't mean Count Dracula evil or Frankenstein evil, I mean evil in the sense that it disrupts order, just as peace settles chaos. When I said War is necessary, I meant that war is necessary for peace. It's like a bunch of the quotes from Call of Duty 2 say, "If a wise man demands peace, let him prepare for war."

Thank you Xenos for having a good attitude about differing opinions and beliefs, very much appreciated.

Sgt Sierck's interjections:

Life After Death: I think that there is a small level of consciousness at least when you die. I can't see myself not being able to think. My guess would be that death is like a dreamless sleep, but I wouldn't know, I haven't died before.

Karma From Past Lives: Like I said, I drew this thought heavily from Hinduism/Buddhism, where reincarnation is Life after Death, and I think that at some point you leave this world, but no one knows, just offering different possiblities.

and who knows Sgt, you might have been a Roadie in a past life :) Just don't overdose on drugs for me will ya?

Xenos, Caulhon, and Azrael: Opinion's are great, and I'm glad you all are taking this well. Glad to see the community is still sharp, and Azrael: even though you think it's way over your head here, it really is just people voicing their opinions, I know I haven't taken a philosophy class or anything, I'm a sophmore in high school :p

Sir Tequila

08-15-2006, 10:58 AM

and who knows Sgt, you might have been a Roadie in a past life :) Just don't overdose on drugs for me will ya?
Actually, if I was a roadie in a past life, it would be "don't overdose on drugs again" ;)

But yes, the life after death theory you said is one I believe in. It's a dreamless sleep.

Xenos

08-15-2006, 11:34 AM

I'm a Jehovah's Witness DemonFlame. which like i stated before(since we get a bad rep sometimes for trying to 'convert' people) im glad there are differenting views and opinions and im not out to change them or anything, i like to hear them and learn new things. also im with you demonflame in that im happy that this is taken in a civilized manor since ive seen discussions like this handled immaturaly(not here, but IRL and in some of my schooling) before.

PMS GibGirl

08-15-2006, 03:45 PM

Creationism, Evolutionism, and Intelligent Design:

I only really understand Creationism and Evolutionism, but here's my logic on the subject, just tell me if I should be grouped into a certain category :p

Intelligent Design is Creationism where someone crosses out the word "God" and instead replaces it with "Intelligent Designer". That's the only difference - it's Creationism tweaked with the hope they can get it into schools since it's no longer blatantly religious.

Life After Death

Gib's thoughts/theories: I like the simulation theory, it does give another plausable possiblity, and if not already so perhaps we might be able to find immortality in machines in the future.

All I know from the Quantum Immortality is from that movie "The One," sadly. Science fiction lore aside, there existed many of the same people in different "lives." Of course in that movie it stated that if you kill off all your brethren then you become a God and the multiverse crashes, but I digress. I do know that if Quantum Immortality was an actuality there would be millions upon billions of otherworlds, given the fact that we make decisions, small and large, on a daily basis, and there would have to be one for every single person's decision. It would be a daunting prospect, but one could learn a lot about themselves that way :)

Currently, both the simulation argument and the quantum many-worlds theories are just concepts that are at this point unprovable and will not affect our lives. It's more in the realm of thought experiements that could be done with them.

For example, if you could simulate living beings in a computer, then you have already constructed artificial brains - and would probably be able to create entirely artificial bodies too, so that someone could live as a machine. So perhaps the simulations would be run to allow people to "mature" after living a live in the simulation, after which they could take that person's mind and transfer it into a machine to live in the real world. Or perhaps, even more of a strange idea, imagine people, for entertainment, education, or other reasons, occasionally living out entire simulated lives, after which all the experiences and ideas are integrated back into the full person. After you die, you could find that was just one more life experience that's part of the full you. (I mean, honestly, if you could do such things, wouldn't you?)

And yes, the quantum many-worlds theory would lead to an essentially infinite number of alternate worlds, some with minor differences (just a difference in your hair or eye color), some with major differences (Earth never formed), and possibly some even more bizzare (differences in basic constants in the universe). And likely, there would be no way to travel between them - after all, if there was, and there were all those other worlds, some of them would have already discovered how to travel between them and would already be doing it. So it's also just an idea that's not really provable.

I do have say that while I know it wouldn't be a BAD thing if there was no afterlife (if you no longer exist, you're not experiencing ANYTHING, so you can't be suffering while doing so), I suspect there is. Why? Because I'm aware of being alive, and I remember it. Any period of time in your life that you don't ever remember happening is as if it never happened from your perspective.

Example: While I was a kid, there was a lunar eclipse that occured. My dad claims to have woken me up to see it during the middle of it. I must have been still halfway asleep, as I never knew it happened and have never rembered any of it. To me, it never happened.

So if I was going to die in the future and cease existing, then since I'd no longer be around to remember my life, shouldn't it all go by without me ever being aware of it? Since it doesn't, it seems to me like that means I will always be around in some way to remember my life.

Pirate

08-15-2006, 04:33 PM

You guys think about it too deeply.. haha. I got so confused trying to read all that.

& I don't know what exactly I believe in.. something has to happen after you die.. ahah but I don't know what. *sigh* too lazy to think.

craigzy

08-15-2006, 04:45 PM

god created the universe because he was bored and needed a buddy.

Sir Tequila

08-15-2006, 06:38 PM

The thing about death is you don't (and won't) know how you died. Unless, you see death coming at you, or something. But I don't believe in heaven.

Xenos

08-15-2006, 06:58 PM

Any period of time in your life that you don't ever remember happening is as if it never happened from your perspective.

So if one were to get amnesia and not remember anything(besides how to talk and move and general skills like that), and it was permanant could you say then that they(being themselves before the amnesia) are dead and the new them(after the amnesia) is an almost entirely new life? Cause at least to me that would make sense.

Kal-El

08-15-2006, 09:43 PM

I personaly am with Gibgirl in that i believe in the 'multiverse'. But i dont think that each decision neccesarily forms a complete univers, for example if my options were say pepsi or diet coke(i dont like them equally as much) then i believe that unless there is a significant event that is caused by me choosing one over the other, IE someone comments on something and that in turns starts a conversation etc then i believe that it would split forming one universe in which i went pepsi and one in which i went diet coke but they would merge back together since after the choice the actions would be the same.

When the split occurs a second you, one who picks the alternate choice, is created. What happens when the merge occurs? The second you dies?

You guys think about it too deeply.. haha. I got so confused trying to read all that.

& I don't know what exactly I believe in.. something has to happen after you die.. ahah but I don't know what. *sigh* too lazy to think.

Simulation theory = The Matrix.
Posible. Kinda scary to think about, but also leaves you thinking "how do I know for sure?" Sure explains why everything tastes like chicken though ;)

Quantum Many Worlds theory = The one or Sliders.
People are faced with many forks in the road. There are many variants and many possible outcomes for each. Each one occurs. if not in our own universe, then in another. Basically an infinite number of "what ifs."

What if the dinosaurs never died?
What if we never discovered electricity?
What if you wore blue socks instead of red today?
and so on...

Hope that's less confusing.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The shear size and complexity of the many-worlds theory makes it implausible not impossible, but very unlikely.

There are 6 billion people on Earth. There would have to be a universe for ever possible combination of decisions for all 6 billion people. That means if you have a choice between red, green, and blue socks and your friend has yellow, orange, and pink. There's a universe for every combination of choices you and your friend makes. The same goes for all 6 billion people on the planet, animals, plants, and natural phenomenon. There's no possible way to even begin to calculate the number of universes that would mean. That's not even counting the possibility of other life forms and phenomena in the universe.

Xenos

08-15-2006, 10:58 PM

When the split occurs a second you, one who picks the alternate choice, is created. What happens when the merge occurs? The second you dies?

what happens when you take to seperate blobs of hair gel and combine them together? just that they combine or merge to form one. neither one goes away they just form one again

and as was brought out by the shear amount of decisions and possibilities thats why i think that if its a small enough change but it doesnt effect anything long term speaking they could merge back together. but also all this is speculation nothing truly able to be proven, or at least proven yet (who knows what might happen in the future) so... yeah just my speculation.

Kal-El

08-15-2006, 11:58 PM

what happens when you take to seperate blobs of hair gel and combine them together? just that they combine or merge to form one. neither one goes away they just form one again

and as was brought out by the shear amount of decisions and possibilities thats why i think that if its a small enough change but it doesnt effect anything long term speaking they could merge back together. but also all this is speculation nothing truly able to be proven, or at least proven yet (who knows what might happen in the future) so... yeah just my speculation.

Your theory would look something like a braid no? Not exactly though since some splits would never be able to recombine and some would only be able to recombine alot father down the timeline. Sorry just trying to picture it.

I don't think a recombination would be possible. In such a case a person would have memories of performing both actions. Would they not? If not then how would which action is to be remembered decided?

What you're talking about is basically the invert of String theory I believe. I could be wrong but from what I remember the theory goes like this:

Picture an infinite number of strings placed parallel to each other on a table. Each string is a universe. Each universe is a representation of a set of choices everyone in it made and their outcomes. So far you've got the basic multiverse theory. The difference is when you and another you for example make the same choices the strings collide. The strings don't merge or anything because the choice had a different out come for each of you.

Xenos

08-16-2006, 01:52 AM

i get ya there. your the first person ever to point out such a large flaw. now im gonna have to sit down and rethink it.

PMS GibGirl

08-16-2006, 10:45 AM

So if one were to get amnesia and not remember anything(besides how to talk and move and general skills like that), and it was permanant could you say then that they(being themselves before the amnesia) are dead and the new them(after the amnesia) is an almost entirely new life? Cause at least to me that would make sense.

If something happened to a person that did cause them to permanently lose all their memories, then yes, they would be, in essence, an entirely new person.

After are, each of us is the sum total of our memories and experiences. We make our decisions, choose our actions, based on those experiences. Take them away from me, and I won't make the same choices.

Caulhon

02-11-2007, 01:32 AM

the only thing i would add to that though is that is no real way to strip away all memories from a mind in atleast some extremely subconscious level that would at somepoint cause them to continue habits or patterns or things they liked before the amnesia so they would still have things in common with their original selves. atleast that's what i would think and is just what seems to make sense to me the most not that i couldn't see the other happening.

l F0CUS l

02-12-2007, 06:05 PM

Here are my thoughts on all things religious, life after death etc.

I do not have any concrete proof that God Exist, I have never seen a miracle, and I have never heard myself from a dead man that there is a life after death. This does not discount the idea of life after death, nor do I accept it, I merelydo not know.

As for the Idea of Intelligent Life - If its intelligent, then it will not contact us, if it isn't, then it will contact us.

Can we just have a whole section for this? Please?

the only thing i would add to that though is that is no real way to strip away all memories from a mind in atleast some extremely subconscious level that would at somepoint cause them to continue habits or patterns or things they liked before the amnesia so they would still have things in common with their original selves. atleast that's what i would think and is just what seems to make sense to me the most not that i couldn't see the other happening.

I do not believe that it is possible for someone to become an entirely new person by stripping away memory, because the old you was based on the hard wiring of your brain, and even if the memory is not their, the hardwiring still it...

x SexyPink x

02-14-2007, 11:17 PM

I think heaven is farfetched, and the idea of it was created so people would behave and coexist without chaos back when there was no written laws. If you really think about heaven, there are many questions. What are you going to be in heaven? ur 16 yr old body or ur death body? Or are you a soul? It also seems to be derived a little bit from greek mythology, with haides as hell. I honestly think ur just not going to exist. It's hard to think about, but ur reality is created by ur brain in a sense. And when u die, ur brain ceases it's functions. However, when i think about why im in my body, and why im me, i get this sense that im a soul or something inside a human body. That leads to the idea of reincarnation for me. That is what i'd like to be true, although eternal paradise would also be nice.

Dizzydude

02-15-2007, 01:39 AM

If something happened to a person that did cause them to permanently lose all their memories, then yes, they would be, in essence, an entirely new person.

After are, each of us is the sum total of our memories and experiences. We make our decisions, choose our actions, based on those experiences. Take them away from me, and I won't make the same choices.

Or are you pre-wired to be like a certain person? Like if you were an extrovert before your amnesia, would it matter what experiences/memories you had, or would you still be extroverted to kind of balance out the universe in a way?

edx

02-17-2007, 06:14 AM

Firstly we need to get away from using the term Subconcious as it is a Pop-Psych term, not an actual Psychology term.

Secondly people change all the time without losing all their memories. The degrees in which they change depends on the experiences they've had and the type of person they are.

MoB Huggybear

03-17-2007, 02:48 AM

If anyone would like to talk about Socrates and his theory on the forms, or Aristotle and his telos theory, or DesCartes and his theories, feel free to post here. I would love to discuss them, or we can talk about religion.

I love philosophy and I would like to have someone here to talk about it with.

CaptainDemon

03-22-2007, 12:44 PM

geez never thought this thread would still be around.

Well when I said I dabbled in philosophy, I really only meant it from an amatuer's point of view, if you named theories, I was clueless, and still very much am.

So perhaps if you could provide a link to said theories I wouldn't mind discussing them with you.

ZachTheOne

03-26-2007, 07:51 PM

Your theory would look something like a braid no? Not exactly though since some splits would never be able to recombine and some would only be able to recombine alot father down the timeline. Sorry just trying to picture it.

I don't think a recombination would be possible. In such a case a person would have memories of performing both actions. Would they not? If not then how would which action is to be remembered decided?

What you're talking about is basically the invert of String theory I believe. I could be wrong but from what I remember the theory goes like this:

Picture an infinite number of strings placed parallel to each other on a table. Each string is a universe. Each universe is a representation of a set of choices everyone in it made and their outcomes. So far you've got the basic multiverse theory. The difference is when you and another you for example make the same choices the strings collide. The strings don't merge or anything because the choice had a different out come for each of you.

I can't see how the universes could colide or combine at all. From everything I've read here, I think once there is that cross roads, they will never meet. For instance if you picked coke over pepsi and decided coke was your favorite choice and kept that for a long time. Then one day you think to yourself what pepsi tastes like because you havn't had it in a long time. So you go out to the store to pick up a pepsi, and get hit by a bus. Well then that universe is done. But then again what if you went with pepsi and went to the store for coke... would there actually be any difference? Yes I think there would be. To believe the basic action is the same, the coke and pepsi would be stocked seperately so right there is a difference. And for one action to correct everything changed by the choice of coke vs. pepsi, it would have to be perfect. And perfection is only theoretical. (meaning you can never make something infitnitly perfect.) Even then the perefect choice would only make the multiple universes mirrored because they can never merge. All the memory of the seperate actions would have to be erased. And maybe the perfect action could do that, but thats only because it would be perfect and we don't know.

Every decision, no matter how small, has an infinite number of reactions. So any small decision creates an infinite number of realities. But I don't believe any of this, just arguing logic.

When you make a decision it is made and it affects only one universe, our universe. Even if there were other universes created, we would never be influenced by them because we would never be a part of them. So here's something that me and friend have thought of while talking about this. I'm not sure if i believe it yet but here's what he says.

There is only one universe and it's impossible that others are created by choice, because the definition of the universe is everything, so you can't have more than one everything. There's no such thing as choices because every thing that happens is because of an outside force acting upon it. The whole universe is just one long chain of eternal events that is perfectly predictable if you know everything that is happening in the universe. If you line up two cars and drive them towards eachother, you know they're going to hit. The only way they wont hit is by an outside force interfering. The universe is everything, there is nothing outside of the universe to interfer with it and alter the events.

From what I see, the difference between the multiverse and the universe ideas is a belief in free-will versus no free-will. Both are arguable and thus both ideas are arguable. I think I may be a little swayed towards the universe idea because what you're saying is more than one everything. And there can't be more than one everything. It's like saying 2 x infinite... it's still infinite. But I believe this is a limit to our minds because we aren't capable of actually visualizing infinite. I've always found that it's a mental block when trying to understand life and the universe. We cannot truely understand infinite like we can understand 1 + 1 = 2. And since we can't comprehend one infinite, how can we comprehend two? For there to be a second infinite, the first has to end, and that's not infinite. So there would have to be in a different universe. So wouldn't the 2 universes become one. Because if there's 2 sets of everything, then they wouldn't really be everything.

And how about true nothing, nothing there... It's the space between atoms, but our problem with understanding nothing, is we try to picture nothing as something. Which it's not so the only way to understand it, that I've found, is to try and picture the effects of complete nothing on the human body... Which is because the normal nothing doesn't consciously affect us.

And a link was posted to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17544598/wid/11915829?GT1=9145 About time travel. Time travel isn't possible because you would have to go back through time and change a pre-decided choice. Thus creating a second universe...And that doesn't even make sense. So for time travel to be possible, there would have to be multiple universes. And even then you wouldn't see the universe you came from, just the new one you've changed. So you haven'y actually changed anything, you've just gone to a new universe. So I guess the theory of worm holes would just be the possibility of jumping from one universe to another.

man...philosophy is fun..

<3 Zach

PMS GibGirl

03-26-2007, 08:17 PM

Those arguments are getting a bit sloppy because of what seems to be ambiguity in the use of "universe". There's actually a lot more concrete way of using the term, and it's one that allows the concept of other universes to exist. It's just a matter of properly defining the boundary.

Imagine a two-dimensional surface, unbounded in all directions. Anything that exists on that surface would think of the entirety of that surface as being it's "universe". And as we live in three dimensions, we can easily imagine another surface, parallel to the first one. They never overlap, and each can be seen as a separate universe. Now consider our three-dimensional universe - if there is a fourth dimension that exists but that is outside of our perception, then another universe can also exist, completely separate and non-interacting with ours.

And as an aside regarding infinity... just because all infinities are infinite doesn't mean they're all the same. You can compare infinite series together, and determine which is the greater. The series 1, 2, 3, 4, etc... is not the same as the series 2, 4, 6, 8, etc... The term aleph (http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/I/infinity.html) is used in this category. The simple series of all positive integers is considered to be of cardinality "aleph-null". The number of ways that you can arrange the elements of the series of all positive integers is obviously far, far greater - and given cardinality "aleph-one". Both aleph-null and aleph-one infinities are still infinite in size, but the latter is infinitely greater.

ZachTheOne

03-26-2007, 09:53 PM

l F0CUS l

03-26-2007, 10:09 PM

I have always toyed with the idea that we live in a matrix. I always had that irking feeling that something was not right about the world... Its all a simulation... Follow the white rabbit....

Reaper PMS

03-27-2007, 01:49 PM

heres one for you guys...
Some lifeforms can change there appearance to fit in to there surroundings yet this is not in the exclusion of Human beings for they are the masters of interpretation.
I just though of that

PMS GibGirl

03-27-2007, 01:54 PM

Well my definition of universe is what I base a lot of my argument around. And since we have different definitions of universe then our thoeries will vary right off the start. I enjoy the theoretical math stuff though, always good to learn.

Well, if you define a word to mean something different than how everyone else uses it, it's kinda pointless to even try and relate it to other people, isn't it?