Enlightenment: The Big Bang Theory and Evolution

[AnD Alex]

this is not meant to upset anybody or create and problems i just want to hear what other people believe

Okay so first off i want to say that i am not here to preach about religion or science but i am just trying to see what others think of the subject. I am currently taking Anatomy. Today we began to talk about evolution.
The Idea of Evolution
"Evolution: change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift."

Me personally dont like the Idea of Evolution.
Why?
For the reason that, Yes i know that we relate all the way back to bacteria (as far as we know) but "they" (as in scientists) believe thats where it stops. If we evolved or mutated from bacteria then where did bacteria come from? how can we really say that we stop at bacteria when something has to be bonded to make bacteria.

The Idea of the Big Bang Theory

"The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.

According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Well, to be honest, we don't know for sure. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know.

After its initial appearance, it apparently inflated (the "Big Bang"), expanded and cooled, going from very, very small and very, very hot, to the size and temperature of our current universe. It continues to expand and cool to this day and we are inside of it: incredible creatures living on a unique planet, circling a beautiful star clustered together with several hundred billion other stars in a galaxy soaring through the cosmos, all of which is inside of an expanding universe that began as an infinitesimal singularity which appeared out of nowhere for reasons unknown. This is the Big Bang theory."


so really what is being said is that a great amount of energy has started the universe. (if i read right) scientists do not know where the energy came from and how it appeared. So i bring the question What if the "great amount of energy" is a higher being "GOD" that would change the whole perspective for scientists am i correct?

Keep in mind science has no facts. only theories, hypothesis's? (not to sure if thats grammatically correct), and educated guesses.

[Raevn]

Keep in mind science has no facts. only theories, hypothesis's? (not to sure if thats grammatically correct), and educated guesses.

Gravity exists. This is a fact. Shall I go on?

[AnD Alex]

Scientists have said that Science is based on theories, hypothesis's (again).
but please do go on if you will

[Gaviteros]

Wow I haven't posted in a long time. Then again you did give me this link. I think a shifty eyes insert is needed. :ninja:

Science does contain facts. It is a fact that mass attracts mass in proportion with it's own mass and motion. Often facts are dismissed because they do not account for every circumstance in every scale. This creates scale confusion. On the molecular scale the laws of Newtonian Gravity do not work -> this is because they are not the only forces at work and while they are still in existence they are insignificant because of the minuscule amount of mass.

Theories are not just someone deciding suddenly that "This is how it happened." They are proposed and continually revised as new developments come into play. Saying: "Oh it is just a theory." Does not make it incorrect, that statement is an oversimplification.

Anyway I think you will find your explanations of both Evolution and (to a much lesser extent) the Big Bang to be a bit incorrect.

One of the more accepted beliefs relies suchly: Plausible pre-biotic conditions result in the creation of certain basic small molecules (monomers) of life, such as amino acids. This was demonstrated in the Miller-Urey experiment by Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey in 1953. It is assumed that in the primordial ooze that would have formed in a very young earth's oceans would fulfill these requirements. Amino Acids form the simplest of organisms that move in complexity with each generation... or each hundred generations.

Evolution has been battled several ways by very clever people. One example is that the 'eye' could not possibly have evolved from non-existence because if you take a certain "corkscrewed" microscopic piece the whole eye stops working, and the chances of it evolving with the rest of the eye simultaneously is ridiculous.

This is a concern that I see no problem with... except that that same corkscrewed piece could originally have had another purpose as did the other parts of the eye, and light receptors of a much simpler kind do not require this 'corkscrew' to work. The first organism with 'eyes' probably had a much simpler version only working with the basics of light and interpretation. The corkscrew could have started as a protection mechanism and evolved as it became apparent that better sight would create a more likely chance of survival.

Trojan here is bugging me to stop typing and finish the post already so I will.

Insert yet another shifty eyes.

[AnD Alex]

Well if you can answer the question on the subject of evolution.
"If we evolved or mutated from bacteria then where did bacteria come from? how can we really say that we"The mutation" stops at bacteria when something has to be bonded to make bacteria."
and again science does not contain facts. it contains theories which Yes some can be proven but they will not be facts.

and also

LOL TROJAN? noone has called me that in forever.

i also forgot please answer this?
So i bring the question What if the "great amount of energy" is a higher being "GOD" that would change the whole perspective for scientists am i correct?

[Gaviteros]

As I said there the bacteria came from the amino acids which have been proven to form as either left or right depending on what seems to be a relatively 50/50 chance in the perfect conditions. A monomer is the most basic form of life that we know. It is improbable that the process of evolution works with things that are inanimate. So if the conditions of the elements and compounds are perfect acids do form near spontaneously (might be considered to actually be spontaneous... I'm not exactly sure) which bond to make bacteria etcetera etcetera.



My personal belief is that a cosmic force of energy (love) is what would have fueled the Bang. Since I believe that the whole universe is divinity it is not a far step to allow for you question to be assumed as correct. Science is based on the ideas of reason (probably deserving of a capital R)

In purely 'logical' terms of chances it is equally likely that a divine consciousness set the Bang into motion (something I don't believe in is that God is a consciousness though that is different.) are as similar as to pressure building on a scale to create the big bang. It is as equal as a civilization that came from an unknown source creating the universe with their own technology.

It does not change the debate at all to believe that the force came from a consciousness or for spontaneous events. The spread of the galaxy seems not to be slowing down as we had assumed with the first few hypothesizes but instead is accelerating from a mass (dark matter) that, in our current knowledge base, must exist to account for the growth.

No cosmology can claim to be fact because it is a cosmology. It is an attempt to explain the origin of the universe and that can not be 'proven' in the standard way. You can not observe the origin (for that would require existence before creation, an impossibility).

There is a problem with our current mind set.
We seem to think that Science is not Theology. They are intertwined, not as two separate entities but as one being.



A fact[15] is an observation or a piece of data. Facts can include objective measurements which can be either pieces of verifiable evidence, or the results of an experiment which can be repeated over and over again by different people. For example, there are many observations of gravity and measurements of gravity. Every time an apple is dropped and it falls, an observation of gravity has been made. Gravity is measured every time something is weighed. So gravity can be described by scientists as a fact. This is because there is a collection of gravity observations that need to be explained. Objective observations are facts in scientific language.

Theories[16] in science are different from facts. Scientific theories describe the coherent framework into which observable data fit. There have been many theories that attempt to explain the fact of gravity. That is, scientists ask what is gravity, and what causes it. They develop a model to explain gravity, a theory of gravity. Predictions can be made and tested based on this theory. Many explanations of gravity that qualify as a Theory of Gravity have been proposed over the centuries: Aristotle's, Galileo's, Newton's, and now Einstein's. So gravity is also a theory. In science, current theory is the theory that has no equally acceptable alternate theory, and has not been falsified, that is there have been no observations made which contradict it to this point and, indeed, every observation ever made either supports current theory or at least does not falsify it (see Karl Popper). In no case did gravity disappear when a new theory was created; instead, the explanation for gravity was refined and improved.

Carefully examining these two descriptions of the words "fact" and "theory" in a scientific context reveals a source of confusion when discussing gravity. Gravity is referred to as both a "fact" and a "theory". Gravity is a "fact" because it has been observed, and observations are "facts" in scientific language. Gravity is also the name of the explanation for this "fact" and other evidence, or "facts". And scientific explanations are called "theories" in the language of science. So gravity is also a "theory", as well as a "fact".

[Kal-El]

Scientists have said that Science is based on theories, hypothesis's (again).
but please do go on if you will

I think you miss understood, or weren't talking to an actual scientist.

Science starts out as a hypothesis or theory and the goal is to prove or disprove the hypothesis.

And there's a couple theories about where the Big Bang came from. I think the most popular is that the universe expands up until a certain point and then starts moving backwards like if it were attached to a spring. The universe then shrinks until all matter is condensed into a single point (probably resembles an unimaginably large star). The star continues to condense until the pressure and heat cause it to explode outwards again, creating another big bang.

Scientists theorize that the universe could continue to expand indefinitely or that it will one day stop. They theorize that there exists an element previously unknown called "dark matter" that fills the void in space. How much of this matter exists will dictate when (if ever) the universe will stop expanding. It may also hold the key to knowing if the universe will ever fall back in on itself (spring effect). Scientists haven't yet found a way of detecting this "dark matter," so for now it's just another theory.

There is proof that the big bang happened though. Scientists can observe galaxies expanding. Also I saw on the PBS's NOVA (IIRC) that if you tune an old TV that has antennae to a channel with white noise, that noise is the residual effect of the big bang.

[AnD Alex]

Dex. im sure you know a theory can be proven. but that doesnt make it a fact. it still has the title of theory. because there may be some other equations that we have missed to change the outcome? maybe i dont know but i know science has no facts

oh and Gav. where did the amino acids come from then?

[Kal-El]

Dex. im sure you know a theory can be proven. but that doesnt make it a fact. it still has the title of theory. because there may be some other equations that we have missed to change the outcome? maybe i dont know but i know science has no facts

Science is proving facts. They prove things using the scientific method.

scientific method
–noun
a method of research in which a problem is identified, relevant data are gathered, a hypothesis is formulated from these data, and the hypothesis is empirically tested.

Maybe not all things have been proven yet, but that doesn't mean it never will.

Science has no facts, huh. So you're going to tell me that:


The existence of gravity isn't FACT.
The existence of other bodies out in space (plantes, stars, galaxies, etc) isn't FACT.
That the our planet revolves around our star, Sol, isn't FACT
That everything is made up of Molecules, which in turn are made of of Atoms isn't FACT


These are all things discovered and PROVEN by science. If you're going to say otherwise, then you must be delusional.

oh and Gav. where did the amino acids come from then?

Hmm.. maybe they came from atoms that bound together during the formation of the planet.

Evolution is real. There's evidence of it. Sure things from the beginning can't be proven 100% because we weren't there and we don't have time machines yet. However they make a lot more sense then the theory that some big magical dude with a white beard poofed a person into existence and then used part of that person to make another person, and then they both somehow populated the entire planet and by some miracle we're not horribly imbred due to the very small gene pool.

[H2O Cobra]

What came first, the chicken or the egg? :)

[Gaviteros]

Troj (That is your name, I will not change.)

Gravity is fact. It can be observed as simply as dropping a pencil. The theory of why it works is the theoretical part of it. I'm assuming if I am repeating this you didn't read my wikipedia entry.

Theories are supported by facts.

The assumption, as I also said before, is that these amino acids formed in the primordial fluid that formed with the planets. It is assumed that the planet formed from residue and matter expelled from the big bang in accordance to gravity as seen on the galactic scale.

[AnD Alex]

I am not delusional lol i am simply stating what i have heard and read. but gav i still dont believe that evolution is real. maybe there can be a mix evolution (like god created what made us) im not sure. i am just studying this in my class and wanted to understand more of what the population believes :). and i still dont think ALL THOSE LISTED are FACTS.i they can be theories, laws or hypothesis's? lol i dont know.

[Kal-El]

I am not delusional lol i am simply stating what i have heard and read. but gav i still dont believe that evolution is real. maybe there can be a mix evolution (like god created what made us) im not sure. i am just studying this in my class and wanted to understand more of what the population believes :). and i still dont think ALL THOSE LISTED are FACTS.i they can be theories, laws or hypothesis's? lol i dont know.

If God created us, then what or who created God? Does God, have a God?

And let me guess this class was in a church or one of those catholic type schools. They're the only institution I know of that would teach people that science has no facts, even though they are made of the proof.

[Sweet Pea]

Thinking about this stuff really scares me. It makes me twitch.

[Zackizle]

I am not delusional lol i am simply stating what i have heard and read. but gav i still dont believe that evolution is real. maybe there can be a mix evolution (like god created what made us) im not sure. i am just studying this in my class and wanted to understand more of what the population believes :). and i still dont think ALL THOSE LISTED are FACTS.i they can be theories, laws or hypothesis's? lol i dont know.

How can you argue over somthing that you either read or heard.
i would love to see where you found your information, or what nuttcase said that science has no facts.

Lets start by defining fact.

FACT:
–noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5. Law. Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence. Compare question of fact, question of law.
—Idioms6. after the fact, Law. after the commission of a crime: an accessory after the fact.
7. before the fact, Law. prior to the commission of a crime: an accessory before the fact.
8. in fact, actually; really; indeed: In fact, it was a wonder that anyone survived.

Gravity, for instance, is fact.
Science found gravity, making it fact.


It is FACT that evolution exists. Darwins theory...is a theory, but it is also fact.
Now on the other hand, how much evolution is true? thats what the big debate is.

What dex said is absolutly true, your trying to argue somthing "well where did this come from then"
Well where did "god" come from?

That is somthing we cannot explain, and we will never be able to explain. Nuff said.
But the FACT that your stating science isnt fact, that science contains no facts, is ridiculous.


BTW guys, im pretty sure they know why gravity works.
Im pretty sure that the earth spins, and in that motion makes everything pull inward. correct me if im wrong.

[Kal-El]

How can you argue over somthing that you either read or heard.
i would love to see where you found your information, or what nuttcase said that science has no facts.

Lets start by defining fact.

FACT:
–noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5. Law. Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence. Compare question of fact, question of law.
—Idioms6. after the fact, Law. after the commission of a crime: an accessory after the fact.
7. before the fact, Law. prior to the commission of a crime: an accessory before the fact.
8. in fact, actually; really; indeed: In fact, it was a wonder that anyone survived.

Gravity, for instance, is fact.
Science found gravity, making it fact.


It is FACT that evolution exists. Darwins theory...is a theory, but it is also fact.
Now on the other hand, how much evolution is true? thats what the big debate is.

What dex said is absolutly true, your trying to argue somthing "well where did this come from then"
Well where did "god" come from?

That is somthing we cannot explain, and we will never be able to explain. Nuff said.
But the FACT that your stating science isnt fact, that science contains no facts, is ridiculous.


BTW guys, im pretty sure they know why gravity works.
Im pretty sure that the earth spins, and in that motion makes everything pull inward. correct me if im wrong.

Gravity is effected by the Earth's size. Actually, all objects with mass have a slight gravitational pull. The more massive an object is the more pull it has.

Also, we might not be able to know how evolution started on our planet only because we don't have the means of seeing that far back into the past. In the future we might develop some way of seeing how it was done.

Maybe we'll see or start the process on some other planet some time in the future.

We'll probably never be able to prove or disprove the existence of God. It'll remain speculation forever. That is if Science doesn't end up proving stuff that makes the existence of God an impossibility.

[s0urz]

=/ I believe in the guy, with the long hair ,who walked on the beach and healed the people.. Yeap,Science was never my thing I was always a firm believer in Jesus Christ.

[Zackizle]

=/ I believe in the guy, with the long hair ,who walked on the beach and healed the people.. Yeap,Science was never my thing I was always a firm believer in Jesus Christ.

As am I.
But what this guy is saying is ridiculous :)

[Kal-El]

=/ I believe in the guy, with the long hair ,who walked on the beach and healed the people.. Yeap,Science was never my thing I was always a firm believer in Jesus Christ.

lol so you won't believe in things that can be proven, but you'll believe in a tale about a dude 2000 years ago with magic powers?

[AnD Alex]

If God created us, then what or who created God? Does God, have a God?

And let me guess this class was in a church or one of those catholic type schools. They're the only institution I know of that would teach people that science has no facts, even though they are made of the proof.

actually no its a public school. so please dont assume you'll make an ass out of u and me
----Double Post Merged----
As am I.
But what this guy is saying is ridiculous :)
zackizle if you plan to put down other peoples beliefs you are in the wrong thread. okay?

[Kal-El]

actually no its a public school. so please dont assume you'll make an ass out of u and me

What public school is teaching you that science has no facts?

[Wafer]

i personally think topics like these are better left unsaid, this kind of subject is not to be spoken in a gaming forum i think, taboo subject such as religion, politics and such

it creates arguments that shouldn't happen in the first place and to put people in this situation in wich they have to respond is childish and irresponsible and further more inconsiderate on others feelings and beliefs, but thats just me

[H2O Fate]

can you explain how this subject is "taboo" if the mods haven't closed and/or deleted it.

Debating about things are arguments, everyone argues thier sides. with these posts we can actually see what they think about it.

if you find this inconsiderate to your beliefs don't read it. its anything goes for a reason, and its a post where you choose to read or not, there are other threads this one isn't "read because its required" or anything else. I say lets continue this, this is a rather good debate about something that is "taboo" to teach in school.

Dex, this isn't about religion, its about how the universe began, can we keep it to that instead of deciding to "bash" a religion or a persons beliefs that are based on the religion.

As for "And Alex" are those your thoughts or your teachers thoughts about it?

[Wafer]

well still, if your in mixed company you just dont go about and say

"hey guys what do you think about the iraq war"
or
"hey guys what party are you apart of"

theres just some things that you dont really talk about becuase some opinions are not as welceom as others, not stating that you cant respond to a opinion but as i said thats just my thoughts about the whole subject

if i HAD TO respond to this subject id say

its good to teach this kind of stuff in school, cuz its basic science, and th erotically true, but not proven, but its enough evidence to make a educated hypothesis

[ZanaOyakata]

Just to be clear, we all started out as girls. Just so you know. The only difference is a chromasome(sp). So that totally flies in the face of the garden of eden.

Women came first then Men. Plus if we were in the image of God we would have super powers.

[Stasis]

its good to teach this kind of stuff in school, cuz its basic science, and th erotically true, but not proven, but its enough evidence to make a educated hypothesis

hypothesis are made before any experiments or research, which when there is enough evidence to support it it becomes a theory not an educated hypothesis

[Kal-El]

Dex, this isn't about religion, its about how the universe began, can we keep it to that instead of deciding to "bash" a religion or a persons beliefs that are based on the religion.

As I said, the only people that I have ever heard say "science has no facts" is very religious people.

Why would they say this? Well religion says God created us, Science proves we evolved from primates. I don't see why religion would change their story or even give up on it, so they just deny it.

So when someone says they learned that science has no facts in class, the logical conclusion is that they learned it in some kind of religious school or class or something. Hey I could be wrong though. Maybe his science teacher is just an incompetent idiot.

Science might not have all the answers to everything yet, but it's far from having "no facts" (as has been proven in this thread).

its good to teach this kind of stuff in school, cuz its basic science, and th erotically true, but not proven, but its enough evidence to make a educated hypothesis

I don't see what good can come of kids learning that science knows nothing.

Just to be clear, we all started out as girls. Just so you know. The only difference is a chromasome(sp). So that totally flies in the face of the garden of eden.

Women came first then Men. Plus if we were in the image of God we would have super powers.

Which is why men have nipples.

And we're supposedly created in God's image. Meaning we look like him. That's all. Looking like someone doesn't give you anything.

[ZanaOyakata]

Well he could have gave them to us to help us out. At least Hiro's power so we could kick adam and eve's ass for eating the tomato/forbidden fruit. Can we disown them?

[H2O Fate]

dex. science hasn't proven that we have gone through evolution so the only option to do is deny it.

Even darwin who wrote the book about it said there is still something missing.

there is no solid proof which is why evolution is a hypothesis NOT a theory. theorys imply that it is a solid fact. *according to a teacher who I didn't think much of in highschool*...

"Plus if we were in the image of God we would have super powers."

true and untrue. we are just an image, nothing more. as for the "Super powers". We were given something that is above everything else. the ability to think and reason.

[ZanaOyakata]

When I get to heaven I want to ask where he was when the snake was blabbing.

[H2O Fate]

according to the bible he was resting. the 7 days of creation was an interesting read *if you actually think about it on such a wide scale*. its crazy.

but i'm starting to believe in the started as a mass of pure energy that exploded, I mean that would explain how the universe is expanding and the abnormalitys of black holes *which could be considered rips in the universe*. except I wouldn't know how or why human life was formed. that would be confusing.

Gravity is a result of centrifical force if I remember right. the act of spinning something so fast that those who are loosely attached are held down by the force. there are quite a few rides at local fairs that could teach you that, but i'm somewhat of a science ____. *have to say though my favorite has got to be the tilt a whirl where it spins you then flips it so you are looking down at the ground but held onto it not by straps but by the force created by the ride spinning.

[ZanaOyakata]

Its centripetal force not centrifical. Centrifical force is not real. There have been occurrences where gravity "leaks" to some unknown place. Which is totally weird.

[H2O Fate]

Seriously?! The people on the magic school bus lied to me. *dear god someone please get that reference...*

there is something called centrifugal *centrifical* force, it can be either real or ficticious, scientists seem to use that because it makes certain equations work.

I bothered to check the wiki to find out for sure.

[ZanaOyakata]

The proper term is "centripetal force". There is no such thing as "centrifical" or "centrifugal" force.

Centripetal force is the force that is directed radially inward, towards the center of a circular path when an object is undergoing circular motion.

For example, when you swing a bucket of water over your head in a circular fashion, your arm is applying a centripetal force on the bucket to keep it moving in a circle.

A centripetal force causes a centripetal acceleration.
Even though an object might be moving at a constant speed in a circle, it is continuously undergoing acceleration since its velocity vector is constantly changing (remember, velocity is speed and direction), The object's velocity is always tangent to the circular path, the centripetal force acts to change the velocity with respect to time (acceleration) in order to keep the object moving in a circle.
~Not written by me.

The "centrifical" force or what happens when you play corners is inertia causing you to move.

[Clov3r]

This thread is hilarious. Not in that im laughing at you. I just find all yours arguements interesting in a hilarious sort of scientific/theological fashion.

For greater benefi of this please, I am going to hold my theories and opinions to myself to keep from insulting those who believe differently.

But just know, that Alot and I mean ALOT!!!!!! of this stuff you guys are writing, needs more reasearch.
Someone can present a theory and make it seem logical. Many people can.
Take into account all possible sides of the conflict, from multiple standpoints and take from multile sorces. This will help you to understand something better that you may think you can.

anyway, ok so that is all im going to say.
Not gona reveal which side I believe >.>

<3

[Kal-El]

Gravity is a result of centrifical force if I remember right. the act of spinning something so fast that those who are loosely attached are held down by the force. there are quite a few rides at local fairs that could teach you that, but i'm somewhat of a science ____. *have to say though my favorite has got to be the tilt a whirl where it spins you then flips it so you are looking down at the ground but held onto it not by straps but by the force created by the ride spinning.

No it's not. All objects and particles with mass have gravity. They aren't all spinning either.

source (http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question30.html)

In 7th grade, we did an experiment. We took various objects of varying mass and strung them up. Letting them hang from the string we attached them to a meter stick. We attached one at "0" and then moved the other one closer and closer until we noticed the object pull slightly towards each other. It wasn't huge, but it still happened.

centripetal motion creates g-force, which is what keeps the water in the bucket. Nasa astronauts use the same process to test their ability to resist these g-forces (the arm with a pod at the end that swings around and around).

G-force and Gravity, while similar, are different.
----Double Post Merged----
dex. science hasn't proven that we have gone through evolution so the only option to do is deny it.

Even darwin who wrote the book about it said there is still something missing.

there is no solid proof which is why evolution is a hypothesis NOT a theory. theorys imply that it is a solid fact. *according to a teacher who I didn't think much of in highschool*...

Ok so because there's a missing link, evolution is fact. Even though there's evidence of all the other steps. Heck even genetics gives us clues to this. Anyways, because of that one missing link, evolution is nothing more than speculation.

Then again, people take the story of God creating us as being fact, when there's not one shred of evidence showing us 1) the existence of God or 2) that God poofed us into existence. Except that one book that was writting by who knows who a long long time ago.

So to recap:

Evolution = not fact because of a missing step

God creating us = Fact because it was written in some book that was written thousands of years ago by a bunch of random people.

Gotch ya!

[ZanaOyakata]

I tend to believe god is perfect. God Created humans through evolution. That is why we have a lot of unnecessary parts. Appendixes, they only cause problems and have no use.

If he created us directly he would not give us all of these flaws. Like eating and breathing by way of the same tube.

Plus it is unconstitutional to force this onto people. Which why I am against it even thought I believe in god.

[Kal-El]

I tend to believe god is perfect.

God can't be perfect. He created us, and we're full of mistakes. Perfection can't create imperfection.

I'll leave it at that. I don't want to bring out THE ARTICLE if I don't need too. :P

[ZanaOyakata]

God can't be perfect. He created us, and we're full of mistakes. Perfection can't create imperfection.

I'll leave it at that. I don't want to bring out THE ARTICLE if I don't need too. :P

That is why I believe that god could have set evolution in motion. If he created us we would be flawless.

[Kal-El]

That is why I believe that god could have set evolution in motion. If he created us we would be flawless.

My response to the statement "I think God is perfect." Not whether or not he (or she) set evolution in motion.

If God was perfect, then we'd be perfect too. Eve would have never eaten the forbidden fruit because that was a mistake. Something or someone that is perfect doesn't make mistakes. Therefore, if God truly was perfect, then we'd all still be living in the garden of Eden because we would be perfect too.

[ZanaOyakata]

My response to the statement "I think God is perfect." Not whether or not he (or she) set evolution in motion.

If God was perfect, then we'd be perfect too. Eve would have never eaten the forbidden fruit because that was a mistake. Something or someone that is perfect doesn't make mistakes. Therefore, if God truly was perfect, then we'd all still be living in the garden of Eden because we would be perfect too.

However, we wouldn't be playing games, we would just be naked and run around in a forest/jungle

[Kal-El]

However, we wouldn't be playing games, we would just be naked and run around in a forest/jungle

And? What does that have to do with anything?

[H2O Fate]

This thread is hilarious. Not in that im laughing at you. I just find all yours arguements interesting in a hilarious sort of scientific/theological fashion.

For greater benefi of this please, I am going to hold my theories and opinions to myself to keep from insulting those who believe differently.

But just know, that Alot and I mean ALOT!!!!!! of this stuff you guys are writing, needs more reasearch.
Someone can present a theory and make it seem logical. Many people can.
Take into account all possible sides of the conflict, from multiple standpoints and take from multile sorces. This will help you to understand something better that you may think you can.

anyway, ok so that is all im going to say.
Not gona reveal which side I believe >.>

<3

I am now curious as to what you have to say. if you can debunk any of what we have said please do i'm interested to be honest.

[ZanaOyakata]

And? What does that have to do with anything?
Everything. Its a catch 22.

[Kal-El]

Everything. Its a catch 22.

Not really. If we were perfect, that would mean no one would ever get sick. The time saved by not having gone through various plagues and find cures to diseases and such would mean we would have had a lot more time to devote to furthering ourselves intellectually and technologically. We probably would be much more advanced than we are now.

Although it's pure speculation. One could also say that if we were indeed perfect we wouldn't have the need for technology.

It's all besides the point though. You said God was perfect, which I argued against. Your response about not playing video games was completely random and moot.

[Jane PMS]

Well, for those of you who keep saying "we would have been" a certain way if god did create us knows nothing of the religion. When it says "we were created in Gods image", that means we were created to represent him. Not to run around with super human powers whipping out light sabers and being at one with the force. If you believe that all things were "created" then you have an understanding of what is going on.
Yes it is true that people have evolved through the years. We have changed due to the changing of the Earth. People that lived long ago could run farther, heal faster and live longer because the atmosphere was different then. Just look at the biodome. It was made to replicate the world the way it was in the beginning. Just as it is proven, this guy was in a little submarine thing going down deep in the ocean. He ended up slicing his hand on something and it healed super fast. Was that because God was there and did a whammy on him. No! It was because of the conditions of oxygen and carbon levels.

Basically, Jesus came to the earth to show the world that God exhisted. Its already been proven. Just because it wasnt in your time, doesn't mean it didnt happen. There are always going to be people that don't believe and that is the way of human nature. God gave us self will so its to be expected.

If you really are a non believer then all I ask is this.
When a whole bunch of people dissapear off the face of the earth.. and some dude claims to be christ.. That you change your mind.

I am not a pusher and I respect all forms of religion. Real christians don't push. I would probably be the same way a lot of other people are if I had some dude believing in Budah come up to me and start ranting and raving about how I am wrong. Id be like.. omg gtfo!

Anywho, I think its good to have something to believe in when life it over. Even if you do not agree, why do people have to try to disprove it. Why not let people have their beliefs and dreams. I have never personally seen God or an angel. But to me he exhists and that is all I need.

[Kal-El]

Well, for those of you who keep saying "we would have been" a certain way if god did create us knows nothing of the religion. When it says "we were created in Gods image", that means we were created to represent him. Not to run around with super human powers whipping out light sabers and being at one with the force. If you believe that all things were "created" then you have an understanding of what is going on.
Yes it is true that people have evolved through the years. We have changed due to the changing of the Earth. People that lived long ago could run farther, heal faster and live longer because the atmosphere was different then. Just look at the biodome. It was made to replicate the world the way it was in the beginning. Just as it is proven, this guy was in a little submarine thing going down deep in the ocean. He ended up slicing his hand on something and it healed super fast. Was that because God was there and did a whammy on him. No! It was because of the conditions of oxygen and carbon levels.

Basically, Jesus came to the earth to show the world that God exhisted. Its already been proven. Just because it wasnt in your time, doesn't mean it didnt happen. There are always going to be people that don't believe and that is the way of human nature. God gave us self will so its to be expected.

If you really are a non believer then all I ask is this.
When a whole bunch of people dissapear off the face of the earth.. and some dude claims to be christ.. That you change your mind.

I am not a pusher and I respect all forms of religion. Real christians don't push. I would probably be the same way a lot of other people are if I had some dude believing in Budah come up to me and start ranting and raving about how I am wrong. Id be like.. omg gtfo!

Anywho, I think its good to have something to believe in when life it over. Even if you do not agree, why do people have to try to disprove it. Why not let people have their beliefs and dreams. I have never personally seen God or an angel. But to me he exhists and that is all I need.

1) God is supposedly perfect, right? And God created us, in what ever form. Then how come we aren't perfect? We make mistakes all the time. We get sick and die. We're far from perfect. It doesn't make sense that something or someone that is perfect can create something that isn't perfect. That imperfection is a mistake, and something perfect doesn't make mistakes. Right?

2) How exactly has is been proven that Jesus existed, or that he was the son of God? Is it because it says so in a book written over 2000 years ago? A book, who's story has changed over and over again over the centuries and through it's many translations. For all we know if Jesus really existed he might have been just some regular Joe. A regular Joe that did somethings that people misunderstood or over exaggerated (like they did seamonsters, etc).

3) We're getting way off track here. The thread as supposedly about how science has no facts. We've proven that science has facts, but doesn't have ALL the facts. I don't think we'll ever know everything about everything. If we do, the universe will become a pretty boring place. No matter how much we learn, I think, given the size of the universe, there's always going to be something out there to surprise us and give us something to try and understand.

[s0urz]

lol so you won't believe in things that can be proven, but you'll believe in a tale about a dude 2000 years ago with magic powers?

I like the theory, where I didn't form out of primordial stew, and came from monkeys :]

O.o; and I like my magical powers.

[Clov3r]

[A T T E N T I O N ]
This is my personal belief.
If anyone intends on attacking me or flaming me
for my personal belief / opinion . . .
Than you obviously do not deserve to hear it
You may argue that your opinion sticks strong to you,
but do not try to change what I myself believe

- - - - -

theory of evolution - genesis - big bang theory....
Well let me just say I grew up believing in all of thee above without really stopping to think that they cant all necessarily be right.

But as a student of Judaism, I have learned the old testament (genesis "LET THERE BE LIGHT") back and forth. The thing that people need to take into consideration about referencing the bible, is that there are many versions. Many rewrites. And everyone knows that this is true. But if it is true, that the bible has been rewritten, then is it not true that it was written by the hand of "Man" and not of "G-D"?

I'm a true believer in my faith. I have faith that G-D will protect me and look after me. I do not, however, believe that god is a super-natural being. "G-D" whom most all of you are referring to in one for or another, was not the first "G-D" to exist. Other religions and cultures were around long before the Hebrews (remember Christianity is derived from Judaism). With this in mind, one can instant argue that Monotheistic religions are all entirely false. If you move on to think about and study the anthropology and physiology of pre-monotheistic religions, we find cultures that too show sign of warships and religion. The backs up the theory that Genesis was man-written and thus the image of "G-D" was too.

anyway I'm going to skip a few more references and get straight to my arguing point.
It is my personal belief that "g-d" and gods alike, are nothing more that beings created up many many many many thousands of years ago to explain events in which man could not decipher. I believe that "G-D" the monotheistic super being, is nothing more than our conscious. telling us what to do is right and or wrong. I believe that Heaven is "Peace of Mind". I believe in G-D, But I do not necessarily believe that he exists in the clouds, up in space, in the sky or in another dimension.

I think religion is a wonderful tool for mankind. I do believe that many people abuse this tool, let alone privledge, and I do believe that over many years people have forgotten what exactly it is to believe. Religion has a set of laws. Do we all follow them? Are you aware that there are actually 613 commandments, not just ten?

I think that today, society is so worried about being correct, and absolute. That we forget about what it is religion is all about. Finding sanctuary with ones self and ones mind. If we cannot learn to live life to the fullest and appreciate what we have, how can we then call ourselves "man"?

because the stories in the bible, the Koran, etc. Are not meant to start wars. They are intended to stop them

[ZanaOyakata]

We were perfect, according to the Bible, then Adam decided to eat the fruit because Eve and a snake told him too. Then God, got po'ed and created death. That is basically what happened.

God was drinking martinis while Mr. Snake was sweet talking Eve in to eating from a tree that God said don't eat from it.

I still think evolution is right because you can't discount fossil records and the age of the universe and earth. The Bible is metaphor and should not be taking literally.

[Jane PMS]

Most of you are taking partial information and facts and filling in your own blanks. If you look at the fossil records they were bigger. That has to do with the atmosphere from that time. It does not prove evolution lol.. maybe some shoudl check their facts before ranting :)

On that note. If science is factual....how can you defend facts with you dont even have half of them correct.

[Eliptyk]

Most of you are taking partial information and facts and filling in your own blanks.

I agree with Shortcake. To properly argue this you need to have tons of information and research behind you. You can't just take the bits and pieces you like and fill them in with your own opinion. (This is not directed to insult/criticize anyone in this debate- this is for anyone who attempts to debate such a weighty topic.)

I've done my research and this is what I believe: there is a God who created the Universe, and I believe that his Son came to live as a man, died for me, and rose again. I believe that the Bible is true and divinely inspired, and that the men that wrote it were God's tools in putting down his words- they neither created it themselves nor let their opinions influence what God had them write.

(As per that last remark about the men who wrote the Bible: that doesn't mean that their personalities didn't show through. It has been speculated that Paul was ADD because he skips around a lot in making his points...but the important thing is that God's message is there as clear as a bell for any who would believe.)

[Jane PMS]

I wasnt trying to hurt anyones beliefs by what I said. All I am saying is that you really have to be well versed with the topic at hand before you can make sound statements. Yes everyone is intitled to their own opinion. But when dealing with certain things you cant go in half blind. You wouldnt go into a meeting with a bunch of heart doctors and fling your opinion around on how they need to do procedure and conduct surgeries if you didnt go to school for it and know what they know. You wouldnt have a conversation with a computer programmer and spout out your rude opinions if your a scrapbooker. To have an understanding of ANYTHING you need to do your homework.

[Kal-El]

We were perfect, according to the Bible, then Adam decided to eat the fruit because Eve and a snake told him too. Then God, got po'ed and created death. That is basically what happened.

God was drinking martinis while Mr. Snake was sweet talking Eve in to eating from a tree that God said don't eat from it.

I still think evolution is right because you can't discount fossil records and the age of the universe and earth. The Bible is metaphor and should not be taking literally.

If Eve ate that apple, then she wasn't perfect. God told her not to. If she was perfect, then she wouldn't have disobeyed.



What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

[H2O Fate]

If Eve ate that apple, then she wasn't perfect. God told her not to. If she was perfect, then she wouldn't have disobeyed.

I would like you to read about how eve was created.

[Clov3r]

edit: I removed this statement because it is obvious that most people here are not open enough to hear what it is that I have to say.
I honestly feel sorry for most of you that let one side of the situation cloud your judgment
Many of you are being hypocrites. And you should be ashamed.


due to the controversy and lack of people willing to listen.
I am no longer posting in this thread

[Kal-El]

I would like you to read about how eve was created.

Yeah yeah, she was created using Adam's rip or whatever. Still, If Adam was perfect and she was created from him by a perfect God, then she would be perfect too.

[Spudnut]

She was made from adam's rib that's why girls have an extra rib but anyway

she ate the apple or forbidden fruit and told adam to because of the snake (satan) who tempted them and told them they could be like god if they ate it

[Eliptyk]

Eve ate the fruit (who says it's an apple?! :) ) because God endowed Adam and Eve with a free will. Yes, they were perfect, but having the freedom of choice doesn't make you imperfect. Quite the opposite. It's what makes us special- we don't act by instinct like animals. But it's what you choose to do that will affect you. God gave us free will because he doesn't want us to be robots and follow him blindly. He wants us to come to him willingly, out of choice!

[Spudnut]

Eve ate the fruit (who says it's an apple?! :) ) because God endowed Adam and Eve with a free will. Yes, they were perfect, but having the freedom of choice doesn't make you imperfect. Quite the opposite. It's what makes us special- we don't act by instinct like animals. But it's what you choose to do that will affect you. God gave us free will because he doesn't want us to be robots and follow him blindly. He wants us to come to him willingly, out of choice!

Agreed Nicely said
----Double Post Merged----
not sure about that apple thing lol

[Kal-El]

Eve ate the fruit (who says it's an apple?! :) ) because God endowed Adam and Eve with a free will. Yes, they were perfect, but having the freedom of choice doesn't make you imperfect. Quite the opposite. It's what makes us special- we don't act by instinct like animals. But it's what you choose to do that will affect you. God gave us free will because he doesn't want us to be robots and follow him blindly. He wants us to come to him willingly, out of choice!

Eating the fruit was wrong and a mistake. If you're prefect, you don't make mistakes. You don't do wrong. You're prefect.

God also has free will. God is also perfect. How come God never makes imperfect decisions, but we do?

If God is perfect, has free will, and never makes imperfect decisions, then wouldn't the same thing apply to his perfect creations with free will?

God is also omnipotent. Why did he even make it possible for us to choose evil with our free will? Why didn't he just make our free will limited to only making good choices? He certainly would have the power to do so.

[Jane PMS]

Eve ate the fruit (who says it's an apple?! :) ) because God endowed Adam and Eve with a free will. Yes, they were perfect, but having the freedom of choice doesn't make you imperfect. Quite the opposite. It's what makes us special- we don't act by instinct like animals. But it's what you choose to do that will affect you. God gave us free will because he doesn't want us to be robots and follow him blindly. He wants us to come to him willingly, out of choice!


Very nice indeed! Well put :)

[Kal-El]

Very nice indeed! Well put :)

None of it makes sense though.

[H2O Default]

The way I see it, God granted us free will. I believe that he gets so much more joy out of our praise of him when we are doing it by choice, not because he has placed a restriction on our morals which won't allow us to make wrong decisions. Also, if he had taken away our ability to make some bad choices, would we have any real need to come to him?

There are plenty of things that I can't explain (such as the relationship between God's perfection and our own impurity) but ultimatelly it doesn't really matter. My beliefs are based on faith, not on fact.

[ZanaOyakata]

If there isn't an after life, we just die and fade into nothingness. No conscience, or anything of the sort. The alternative is just a void.

I just get mad at all the fanatical Christians who think if one infinity minute loop hole in evolution is its downfall. Most of them don't understand what the difference between a hypothesis or theory is.

The earth is 6 billions years old and Jesus is not a white guy from Oxford.

[Kal-El]

I just get mad at all the fanatical Christians who think if one infinity minute loop hole in evolution is its downfall.

Yet there are many many loop holes and contradictions in the bible and religion in general, but those don't seem to count.

[Clov3r]

The New Testament was written way after the said period of Jesus Christ occurred.
The Old testament was meant to help serve as the a way to influence and guide it's people, The Hebrews, into living life properly. It also served as a way to spread a judicial system across the nation.


also, in case half of you haven't noticed.... anyone who posted a non Christian view is gone. You guys have served as an antagonist on this forum, in that you wont hear what anyone else has to say.
Outside of this thread I have no problem with you guys as a person or what you have to say. But it is clear in here that people are not ready to talk about this subject from an open prospective. I'm happy for those of you who take pride in your faith. But you may not realize that you are being highly offensive to those not sharing your views and coming off very very very rude.


This thread should be locked, because it's not doing anything productive.
It's a great debate topic, but obviously no one is debating - only dictating.

it really makes me sad because I expected better from alot of you

[Eliptyk]

The way I see it, God granted us free will. I believe that he gets so much more joy out of our praise of him when we are doing it by choice, not because he has placed a restriction on our morals which won't allow us to make wrong decisions. Also, if he had taken away our ability to make some bad choices, would we have any real need to come to him?

There are plenty of things that I can't explain (such as the relationship between God's perfection and our own impurity) but ultimatelly it doesn't really matter. My beliefs are based on faith, not on fact.

That's exactly what I was getting at, Default- an extension of my above post. (And thanks to Shortcake for the compliment!)

Clov3r, I don't think anyone is running over anyone else's opinions. We're having a hot debate, but it hasn't turned into name-calling or flaming. No one is being offensive- everyone is just trying to explain what they believe.

[Nokarot]

Keep in mind science has no facts. only theories, hypothesis's? (not to sure if thats grammatically correct), and educated guesses.

Keep in mind that religion has no facts. Only a bible, and a lot of faith.

If one can argue where bacteria came from, how can one not argue where God came from?

The generic response to "Where did God come from" is "Well, god has, and will always, exist". To which I say, "Maybe Bacteria is as much 'God' as a ball of energy that 'has always existed and just happened to create mankind', how would you know?"

I believe in freedom of belief. If you want to believe in the Big Bang and Religion, thats your own thing, and half of the world agrees with you (in one way or the other). I think theres Merit to both arguements. While I've personally chose to believe in Science, I can see why people would remain faithful. What angers me is when people, from either side, are too closed minded to think the way I do.. which I have to say, a lot of you are.

[Spudnut]

I'm not trying to be mean but ANYONE can TRY and prove the bible wrong but no body can tell you what things GOD has done in their life a.k.a. testimony and if you were to try and prove someones testimony wrong I dunno what should happen to you

[Kal-El]

I'm not trying to be mean but ANYONE can TRY and prove the bible wrong but no body can tell you what things GOD has done in their life a.k.a. testimony and if you were to try and prove someones testimony wrong I dunno what should happen to you

It's not hard to prove the bible wrong, since there's nothing that proves it's true. Lots of science proves it wrong though.

For instance according the the bible the Universe is only ~6160 years old. Carbon dating (hard physical and scientific PROOF) puts the Planet Earth at ~4.5 Billion years. Physics put the universe itself at ~13.7 billion years (give or take about 200 million years).

Heck, if the bible is right and the Universe is only ~6000 years old, then what the heck did the dinosaurs that lived on our planet serveral million years ago go? Where they floating around in space until they died? No, that can't be the universe wasn't even made yet! They must have floated around in nothingness until they all died. Maybe God ran out of stuff the make out planet and used some old dinosaur bones he found floating around to fill in the gaps in the Earth.

Besides, the bible has been translated so many times, that who knows what was written in the original. It's a well known fact that the bible has changed a lot through all the translations though.

Most of the "God's work" testimony I've heard doesn't really prove God did anything. It's usally stuff like "God saved me from that burning building...." When it's actually a group a firefighters that did their jobs well that saved them. Of course people will grasp at straws and say "God helped the firefighters do their job well" or "God sent the firefighters to come save me."

Then again I could say it's because it was the last Tuesday of January, it was the 29th, Mars and Jupiter's alignment towards the sun, and the fact that George Bush was wearing pink underwear on that day that made it possible for the firefighters to save them from the fire. Prove me wrong. You can't. Does that mean it's true? Not really.

i'm not saying the bible doesn't have many important life lessons though. Like Don't kill, Love everyone, don't steal, etc. It's just not non-fiction like a lot of people want to believe.

[Clov3r]

Hot Debate? Maybe.

But honestly, anything I say or someone else says that disproves anything written in your faith, you team up against. You ignore anything that we say. And thats not debating.

anyway, this topic is pointless anyway. Does anyone see an end to this "debate" in the future? Cause I honestly dont. this topic is going to eventually have more pages than the "COUNT TO A MILLION" thread with no one going anywhere.

lets just agree to disagree.

[Eliptyk]

It's not hard to prove the bible wrong, since there's nothing that proves it's true. Lots of science proves it wrong though.

For instance according the the bible the Universe is only ~6160 years old. Carbon dating (hard physical and scientific PROOF) puts the Planet Earth at ~4.5 Billion years. Physics put the universe itself at ~13.7 billion years (give or take about 200 million years).

Heck, if the bible is right and the Universe is only ~6000 years old, then what the heck did the dinosaurs that lived on our planet serveral million years ago go? Where they floating around in space until they died? No, that can't be the universe wasn't even made yet! They must have floated around in nothingness until they all died. Maybe God ran out of stuff the make out planet and used some old dinosaur bones he found floating around to fill in the gaps in the Earth.

Besides, the bible has been translated so many times, that who knows what was written in the original. It's a well known fact that the bible has changed a lot through all the translations though.

Most of the "God's work" testimony I've heard doesn't really prove God did anything. It's usally stuff like "God saved me from that burning building...." When it's actually a group a firefighters that did their jobs well that saved them. Of course people will grasp at straws and say "God helped the firefighters do their job well" or "God sent the firefighters to come save me."

Then again I could say it's because it was the last Tuesday of January, it was the 29th, Mars and Jupiter's alignment towards the sun, and the fact that George Bush was wearing pink underwear on that day that made it possible for the firefighters to save them from the fire. Prove me wrong. You can't. Does that mean it's true? Not really.

i'm not saying the bible doesn't have many important life lessons though. Like Don't kill, Love everyone, don't steal, etc. It's just not non-fiction like a lot of people want to believe.

See, Kal-El you're missing a lot of things about Christianity.

#1. The Bible doesn't state exact years. Nowhere does it say "the Earth/Universe is 6,000 years old." The Earth's/Universe's age is left to your own interpretation. And there are Christians that don't believe that it is 6,000 years old.

#2. The Bible talks about a Flood that totally covered the Earth. The dinosaurs were killed off then, or killed off in the Ice Age that followed. (And there still are remnants of the dinosaurs around- even paleolithic creatures that have survived. i.e. crocodiles, alligators, lizards, certain sea creatures.)

#3. Alluding to my previous post... yes, the Bible has been translated, but it has been by people inspired by God. Yes, their personalities have shown through (as in Paul skipping around a lot in his writing, possibly showing that he had ADD) but their own opinions have not warped the text.

#4. You should listen to some of the testimonies of people that have actually died and gone to Heaven and then come back again. Like my aunt for instance.

#5. This one's from me to anyone who read through my post. I cannot change your opinions and beliefs, and I am not trying to. I am simply telling you some facts. Even Christians disagree with one another. We're not of all one accord.
If you feel that I am being pushy, I am not. I simply feel the need to defend what I believe when it is questioned, as you should feel the need to defend your beliefs... which everyone involved in this debate is doing admirably. It provides a good food for thought and helps strengthen your own opinions when you learn the opinions of others.
It is so very important to listen to others, even if we don't agree. We all have to live with each other so why not listen?
I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe.

[H2O Default]

I have read this thread in it's entirity and I agree with Clover, at least to an extent. There is no end to this debate because no one can prove or disprove anything. Sure, I can spit facts out at you that would make sense to someone who is in the same mindset as me but to the opposers, it wouldn't mean anything. Many of you seem to be posting in this thread, not to further your own beliefs but to wreck that of others.

I'm closing this thread mainly because I feel like the subject orignally brought up has been discussed and now this thread is going way off track.

[Buddy H2O]

And im opening it back up because the thread creator did not request it to be closed and a point or not, this is in the spam section guys. So far it hasn't been so crazy that we would need to close it anyways.

And yes clov3r you are right, it will probably never end but the thread will die out eventually.

[Kal-El]

lol @ the power struggle between the Mods.

I didn't prepare this long resonse for nothing! lol

See, Kal-El you're missing a lot of things about Christianity.

#1. The Bible doesn't state exact years. Nowhere does it say "the Earth/Universe is 6,000 years old." The Earth's/Universe's age is left to your own interpretation. And there are Christians that don't believe that it is 6,000 years old.

#2. The Bible talks about a Flood that totally covered the Earth. The dinosaurs were killed off then, or killed off in the Ice Age that followed. (And there still are remnants of the dinosaurs around- even paleolithic creatures that have survived. i.e. crocodiles, alligators, lizards, certain sea creatures.)

#3. Alluding to my previous post... yes, the Bible has been translated, but it has been by people inspired by God. Yes, their personalities have shown through (as in Paul skipping around a lot in his writing, possibly showing that he had ADD) but their own opinions have not warped the text.

#4. You should listen to some of the testimonies of people that have actually died and gone to Heaven and then come back again. Like my aunt for instance.

#5. This one's from me to anyone who read through my post. I cannot change your opinions and beliefs, and I am not trying to. I am simply telling you some facts. Even Christians disagree with one another. We're not of all one accord.
If you feel that I am being pushy, I am not. I simply feel the need to defend what I believe when it is questioned, as you should feel the need to defend your beliefs... which everyone involved in this debate is doing admirably. It provides a good food for thought and helps strengthen your own opinions when you learn the opinions of others.
It is so very important to listen to others, even if we don't agree. We all have to live with each other so why not listen?
I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe.

#1: The book of Genesis says that the whole universe was created in either a single day or six days, depending on which account one prefers. Anyway this difference of five days between the accounts may be considered “minor”. In this section, for the sake of our argument, we will assume that the universe was created in a short period (between one to six days) sometime in the past. We will now look at how these accounts and the various genealogies of the Bible tell us about the age of the universe.

Many theologians have tried in the past to fix the date of creation of the universe according to the Bible. The most well known of these was the Anglican Archbishop, James Ussher (1581-1656). In 1654 he published his book Annales Veteris Nove Testamenti where he argued that based on the chronology given in the Bible the date of creation was 4004BC. In the old editions of King James Bible we still find, as a footnote to the Genesis story, the date of creation calculated by the Ussher.[1] Fundamentalists do not, of course, subscribe to the exact date given by Ussher, but they do believe that, at the very least Ussher’s date is within the ballpark. Some liberal Christians probably embarrassed at such a recent date of creation have tried to get around the problem by claiming that the Bible does not explicitly state the date of creation. Unfortunately for them it does. Below we will show how such a date can be derived from the Bible.

The books in the Old Testament gave an unbroken succession of events and genealogies from the creation of Adam to the conquest of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. The fall of Jerusalem is an historical event which has been dated by historians to either 586 or 587BC.[2] King Zedekiah was the last king of Judah. The account of the fall of Jerusalem is given in II Kings 25:1-19 (also II Chronicles 36:13-21)

The table below shows the Biblical chronology from the moment of creation to the fall of Jerusalem. The table shows that from the time of creation of the Adam, when the world and the universe was only six days old, to the fall of Jerusalem, the time elapsed was 3578.5 years. If this is added to the year of Jerusalem's fall (587BC), the date of creation can be set at 4165.5BC or approximately 6160 years ago.[a] Thus, whether we take Ussher’s date or the one we have just shown, the Universe is, according to a natural reading of the Bible, only around 6000 years old.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5948/bibletablebv7.png

#2: How could a flood and Ice Age kill off the Dinosaurs when the universe wasn't even around back then?

#3: It's impossible for something that has been translated as many times as the Bible not to have been warped over the years. The argument "well God prevented it from being warped" is ridiculous. Especially since you mention Paul skipping around in his translation. If sure that if he can defy God's will, then many other people can and have.

#4: I suffer from Asthema. When I was younger I suffered from a major attack while I slept. I was lucky my mother came to check on me. Otherwise I would have died. I was rushed to the hospital in an Ambulance, and was actually clinically dead for a short while. I remember seeing things, but through research I've learned that when you sleep as well as when you die your brain releases a high dose of a substance called DMT. DMT ironically is a very illegal substance. It's illegal because it's a very powerful drug that produces dream like hallucinations.

Your brain releasing this substance is the reason we dream when we sleep, and the explanation for "near death experiences." When you die (or are close to dieing) your brain releases a high dose of this DMT (an automatic bodily response possibly to dull the pain and/or ease the death experience for you), and you have a dream like experience of going to heaven or whatever. When you're resuscitated and the DMT wears off you the experience ends and you return from "heaven" if that's what your vision was.

[Nokarot]

It may be in the spam forum, but when you have 2 sides yelling at eachother as opposed to debating with one another, thats a problem if you ask me.

I could quote a few posts where people suggest that the non-religious folk will burn in hell when they die, or the scientific folk calling people stupid for believing in god... but I really dont want to.

I think it should be re-closed. Religion threads on forums are always bad news.

[Jane PMS]

I don't think it has gone that far lol But I do think the PMS Forum isnt a place for this thread.

[Buddy H2O]

It may be in the spam forum, but when you have 2 sides yelling at eachother as opposed to debating with one another, thats a problem if you ask me.

I could quote a few posts where people suggest that the non-religious folk will burn in hell when they die, or the scientific folk calling people stupid for believing in god... but I really dont want to.

I think it should be re-closed. Religion threads on forums are always bad news.

They are bad news, I agree but we dont have a rule or whatnot on discussing religion. This thread really isn't any different from any other thread as far as discussions go. I'll read back through it but im pretty sure its fine. Its not some big war like expected with religion threads.

Continue on with your discussion people but please please keep it to a mature level.

[Clov3r]

Hot Debate? Maybe.

But honestly, anything I say or someone else says that disproves anything written in your faith, you team up against. You ignore anything that we say. And thats not debating.

anyway, this topic is pointless anyway. Does anyone see an end to this "debate" in the future? Cause I honestly dont. this topic is going to eventually have more pages than the "COUNT TO A MILLION" thread with no one going anywhere.

lets just agree to disagree.

like I already said. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Kal-El]

Hot Debate? Maybe.

But honestly, anything I say or someone else says that disproves anything written in your faith, you team up against. You ignore anything that we say. And thats not debating.

anyway, this topic is pointless anyway. Does anyone see an end to this "debate" in the future? Cause I honestly dont. this topic is going to eventually have more pages than the "COUNT TO A MILLION" thread with no one going anywhere.

lets just agree to disagree.

Just about as pointless as the count to a million thread. We don't see that getting locked.

The word association and many of the other threads around the spam section don't have ends to them either, but for some reason they aren't considered pointless.

Heck, I like having a never endless debate over religion. It's something to talk about other than what number comes after 958 587, what word the word cheese makes me thing of, or writing a random name and hoping they are the next ones to write a name.

[Clov3r]

Never said it wasn't enjoyable. Theology, Anthropology, Biology - it's all fun and games. But here, I just dont see it going anywhere. Not enough people want to give thought to what others have to say. Just because it affects the validity of their faith and belief. And no one wants to be wrong or feel alone. So trying to disprove their belief will just get you turned ears and answers that are just a defense mechanism for their views and not an open mind towards others.

That is why it's useless.

[Buddy H2O]

Same goes for opinions. Am I right? Which opinions are EVERYWHERE in debates. Like i said, we will keep this up here for discussion because thats clearly what it is. Just be mature about it and nothing really should go wrong.

[meow]

It is when people start getting off-topic that the end of a thread is near.

[H2O DropinBodys]

Eve ate the fruit (who says it's an apple?! :) ) because God endowed Adam and Eve with a free will. Yes, they were perfect, but having the freedom of choice doesn't make you imperfect. Quite the opposite. It's what makes us special- we don't act by instinct like animals. But it's what you choose to do that will affect you. God gave us free will because he doesn't want us to be robots and follow him blindly. He wants us to come to him willingly, out of choice!

Very nicely put That was what i was going to say And Kal-el you seem really stuck on the idea that "WE SHOULD BE PERFECT" well we wasn't ment to be.

[Kal-El]

Very nicely put That was what i was going to say And Kal-el you seem really stuck on the idea that "WE SHOULD BE PERFECT" well we wasn't ment to be.

I'm stuck on that "idea" because it's true. By definition something that is perfect CANNOT create imperfection.

entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings

How can a perfect God create something with flaws? Even if they developed later, it still means we weren't perfect to begin with. Something perfect can't develop flaws or defects.

A perfect God can't make imperfect creations because defects, flaws, or shortcomings are mistakes. If you're perfect, you don't make mistakes.

Anyways, this explains the whole thing a lot better.

Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.

Proving a Universal Negative

It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.

I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.

Defining YHWH

Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.

God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.

One Bible verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.

Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

Perfection Begets Imperfection

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

The Freewill Argument

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.


All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering

God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

Belief More Important Than Action

Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

Perfection's Imperfect Revelation

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.

No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

Contradictory Justice

One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.


Contradictory History

The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

Unfulfilled Prophecy

The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.

The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.

The Omniscient Changes the Future

A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.

The Omniscient is Surprised

A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.

We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.

The Conclusion of the matter

I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.

Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:

"You are a fool for denying the existence of the IPU. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned."

If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.

[Spudnut]

the bible does not say on the ?th day god created a perfect being like himself no it says he created human and he gave us a choice not that he created us imperfect he made us that way so we wouldnt be robots and it is more satisfying to him if we love him and TRULY love isnt by force

[Kal-El]

the bible does not say on the ?th day god created a perfect being like himself no it says he created human and he gave us a choice not that he created us imperfect he made us that way so we wouldnt be robots and it is more satisfying to him if we love him and TRULY love isnt by force

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

If we were created in his own image, they we would be as perfect as he supposedly is.

You obviously didn't read the article did you? If you had, you wouldn't have given that reply because it's all explained.

And why would I want to truly love a God who is so unjust anyways?

Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

Belief More Important Than Action

Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

I'm supposed to love a God that would sentence people to eternal suffering in the pits of Hell because of some mistakes they made during their lives. Mistakes that GOD HIMSELF MADE IT POSSIBLE TO MAKE!!!!!!!

I'm supposed to love a God that will sentence people to eternal suffering in the pits of Hell because they don't believe in him even when they never even had the chance to? You're telling me I should love a God that will condemn countless people belonging to tribes in Africa or what ever to endless suffering because they don't know what the bible is and therefor it's impossible for them to believe or love this God. He doesn't care though, right? They don't believe so they burn. Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

[Spudnut]

Image meaning we look similar to what he looks like not that we are him or as perfect as him where in the bible can show me that it says we are perfect and shouldn't go through hardships and suffering where?

[Kal-El]

Image meaning we look similar to what he looks like not that we are him or as perfect as him where in the bible can show me that it says we are perfect and shouldn't go through hardships and suffering where?

I think it's kinda funny how you ignored everything else in that last post.

[Jane PMS]

I'm supposed to love a God that will sentence people to eternal suffering in the pits of Hell because they don't believe in him even when they never even had the chance to? You're telling me I should love a God that will condemn countless people belonging to tribes in Africa or what ever to endless suffering because they don't know what the bible is and therefor it's impossible for them to believe or love this God. He doesn't care though, right? They don't believe so they burn. Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

Ok first of all. Everyone is given the chance to believe in God. If you read the Bible... which i don't suspect you have from the statements you have made previously.... It says that God will not return untill certain things come into place. One of the few we are waiting for is that everyone on earth knows about him. Some dude in a hut in the middle of no where is not going to be left out. The word will be spread to all. It is your own free will to accept him into your heart or not. You do not have to be a perfect person. We are all human. We all make mistakes and what greater thing is there than having someone love you unconditionally and all you have to do is ask or forgiveness.

Second. There are these things called MIssionaries!! They are people who go around to those places in Africa spreading the word of God.

Third. Again I dont know if you have read the bible at all... Satan used to be an angel. He was all high and mighty and was trying to take over what God was doing. Therefor God Cast him out of heaven and he was then on a mission to decieve us. The greatest trick the devil will ever do is convince you he doesnt exhist.

Fourth. Have you ever heard of the word "Parable?" People could not understand what God was saying so he started speaking in parables. Hence you get " eve ate the apple" There was no apple. there was no snake. Its a Parable.

Fifth. No matter what your beliefs are you should not go around trying to disprove others. What good does it do you to spout out mis information that you get off the web? Do you get off on thinking that your way is the only way to go? That the facts you find and are misconsrtued are the correct and infinate answer?

Religion is a very touchy subject because its someones FAITH you are talking about. People of any religion or non should not have to defent themselfs to ignorant people. If you want to find out about it.. Read it.. ask honest questions. Comming at someone with questions and then they tell you the answer, and then you repeatedly say the same thing everytime. If you really are not interested then do not ask. I love God and If anyone else does not, that is your own decision. I don't sit here and try to make you think what you believe is not real. If you have had a run in with a fanatic that is pushy and rude, I am sorry. Christians can only share what they know and hope that your soul will be saved. I Have found NO facts in science that disprove the existance of Christ. There are no facts that Disprove the Bible. There are theory's and speculations. But by all means try to find some. You wont. You cannot disprove something that is real and correct. 1+1 = 2 there is no other answer for that.

Again, If people are to stubborn in their own will to say NO to God. Then at least I can educate on the end times. One day there will be a Rapture, where true believes in God will dissapear. When this happens, and then some dude claims to be Christ showing the world miracles that no other can do. Please realize that this man is not Christ. He is infact the anti-christ. As long as you know that much, I pray that you will change your mind. Its been fortold in the bible. God Bless you and I hope he opens your heart and eyes to see whats really going on.

[Clov3r]

Yeah but the bible is a rewrite of the Torah - and those closest thing to the existance of Hell is a place called "Gehenna" which describes what happens to us when we die. In that description it also explains of Reincarnation!!

Hell was something created by the church. Therefore Hell is nothing more than something created by man and not god. Because if hell had existed before such, it would have been noted before such.

anyway. i seriously need to stop posting in here. It makes me want to start whipping out my report cards from theology class. Because some of you all need to brush up on your skills >.>

[Eliptyk]

Never said it wasn't enjoyable. Theology, Anthropology, Biology - it's all fun and games. But here, I just dont see it going anywhere. Not enough people want to give thought to what others have to say. Just because it affects the validity of their faith and belief. And no one wants to be wrong or feel alone. So trying to disprove their belief will just get you turned ears and answers that are just a defense mechanism for their views and not an open mind towards others.

That is why it's useless.

Actually, I find this very useful, Clov3r :D ! It's been a couple years since I was in high school, but during my four years in high school I got into soooo many debates about this kind of stuff (being one of the few moderately conservative types in a mostly liberal school system) that I kinda miss it. What we're talking about has really helped remind me what I believe in, and I hope it's helped all of you too! I don't think most people debating here are being close-minded. The people that are replying are actually taking the time to consider what it is being said, formulate an answer, and writing down what they think! How long does it generally take for each of us to tap out a reply? Probably 10-20 minutes if you tack on the amount of time you spend considering your response to someone's questions/challenges! That's some dedication right there!

I think this is a very valid thread (though slightly unusual on an Xbox clan's forums, but...it is an important topic relevant to everyday living, soooo :rolleyes:...) I'm finding this debate to be most intriguing.

[Kal-El]

Ok first of all. Everyone is given the chance to believe in God. If you read the Bible... which i don't suspect you have from the statements you have made previously.... It says that God will not return untill certain things come into place. One of the few we are waiting for is that everyone on earth knows about him. Some dude in a hut in the middle of no where is not going to be left out. The word will be spread to all. It is your own free will to accept him into your heart or not. You do not have to be a perfect person. We are all human. We all make mistakes and what greater thing is there than having someone love you unconditionally and all you have to do is ask or forgiveness.

Second. There are these things called MIssionaries!! They are people who go around to those places in Africa spreading the word of God.

I have not read the bible from cover to cover, but I don't think i need to. I grew up with two deeply religious grandmothers that used to always lecture me about the bible and even made me go to church until I was about 12. It's at that age that I started questioning God existence an his reasons for doing things.

Furthermore more recently I took a bus to BC which took 3 days. Those entire 3 days I was stuck beside a guy that was studying to become a priest. He made it his mission to try and convert me. For 3 days I had to sit there and listen to a guy talk to me about God and how I'm going to Hell when I die if I don't believe and love God.

But I guess since you're the one that currently believes in God that makes anything you say about the bible automatically true and I'm automatically wrong because I don't currently believe in him.

Anyways, this priest told my that anyone that doesn't believe in God will go to Hell WHEN THEY DIE. NOT WHEN GOD RETURNS OR WHATEVER.. He even pulled out his pocket bible thing to show me where it was written (probably in hope that it would scare me into believing). Unfortunately I can't remember where exactly in the Bible it was written.

So yes that guy in the hut out in the middle of nowhere WILL go to hell when he dies because he doesn't believe in God unless those missionaries get to him on time. I doubt it though because they can't be everywhere at once. So there's always going to be someone out there being sent to Hell because he didn't know what the Bible was and wasn't even given a chance to believe in God. Seem fair to you? Doesn't to me. Isn't God supposed to be compassionate?

[H2O DropinBodys]

you know your hardheadedness is really bothering me the fact on how closed minded your being upsets me......And from now on I will only try to follow your example by ignoring everyone else and Repeating myself Over and over again....Or just not post in this thread.....Lmao

[Clov3r]

ifs funny - because that goes both ways dropinbodies. We think yall are close minded and you think we are. hehehehe

Also, Eplyptik - PMS clan is a multi platform clan. I am a former member of the Quake 3 team. Thats pc. so hehe be careful what you say in here. Some PC and PS gamers may feel left out ;p <3

[Nokarot]

you know your hardheadedness is really bothering me the fact on how closed minded your being upsets me......And from now on I will only try to follow your example by ignoring everyone else and Repeating myself Over and over again....Or just not post in this thread.....Lmao

Welcome to Religion threads on forums. May I take your coat?

As clover said, it goes both ways. As much as I love freedom of choice in this country, people don't have the maturity to handle it.. Again, that goes both ways to the people in this thread, too.

[Eliptyk]

ifs funny - because that goes both ways dropinbodies. We think yall are close minded and you think we are. hehehehe

Also, Eplyptik - PMS clan is a multi platform clan. I am a former member of the Quake 3 team. Thats pc. so hehe be careful what you say in here. Some PC and PS gamers may feel left out ;p <3

Oh, yeaaaaah! I totally forgot! :eek: Hehe. My bad! :tomato:

[Spudnut]

I think it's kinda funny how you ignored everything else in that last post.

I didn't ignore anything I just don't have the time to read the novels you post each time I just took the first thing that I saw that I have a different opinion on
----Double Post Merged----
And since we are on the subject of what we think is funny I think it's funny how the ones trying to prove god wrong? have to take so much time and right so much and are basically running in circles repeating themselves.

[Jane PMS]

I have not read the bible from cover to cover, but I don't think i need to. I grew up with two deeply religious grandmothers that used to always lecture me about the bible and even made me go to church until I was about 12. It's at that age that I started questioning God existence an his reasons for doing things.

Furthermore more recently I took a bus to BC which took 3 days. Those entire 3 days I was stuck beside a guy that was studying to become a priest. He made it his mission to try and convert me. For 3 days I had to sit there and listen to a guy talk to me about God and how I'm going to Hell when I die if I don't believe and love God.

But I guess since you're the one that currently believes in God that makes anything you say about the bible automatically true and I'm automatically wrong because I don't currently believe in him.

Anyways, this priest told my that anyone that doesn't believe in God will go to Hell WHEN THEY DIE. NOT WHEN GOD RETURNS OR WHATEVER.. He even pulled out his pocket bible thing to show me where it was written (probably in hope that it would scare me into believing). Unfortunately I can't remember where exactly in the Bible it was written.

So yes that guy in the hut out in the middle of nowhere WILL go to hell when he dies because he doesn't believe in God unless those missionaries get to him on time. I doubt it though because they can't be everywhere at once. So there's always going to be someone out there being sent to Hell because he didn't know what the Bible was and wasn't even given a chance to believe in God. Seem fair to you? Doesn't to me. Isn't God supposed to be compassionate?

God is compassionate. That is why he gives everyone an equal chance to believe in him. This thread for example is full of things you can learn. But, you choose not to. That is your own free will that you were given to by God. Would you want to have a bunch of mindless people believing in you. Or would you want people to choose to believe in you. Well, God wanted people to choose. It is so great to him when we choose to follow him and believe in his teachings. Try our best to live our life the good way.

To be honest I was raised in a Pentocostal church, We were not allowed to cut our hair, wear pants, makeup or jewelry. I stopped going about the same age as you. I could not understand if the Bible says " God loves you no matter what" then why couldnt I wear pants. It seemed really silly to me. I didn't go to church and refused to believe in him.

Several years ago I was talking to my friend on the internet. It was funny really.. we played DAoC together. Which is a mmorpg kinda like wow. He was really interested in why I didnt believe and asked me lots of questions. The point is that God waits for the right time for you. He doesnt shove himself in your face and threaten you about hell.

I am sorry you had to listen to that priest in training for 3 days straight. Like I said before. I would probably react the same if some Monk was sitting next to me saying I wouldnt go to the after life if I didnt convert to be a Monk.

As far as the guy in the middle of no where who has already died with out meeting up with some missionaries.. I cannot say that he was for sure going to hell or not. I do not know the ways of the Lord. Whos to say God didnt appear to him. How do we know he didnt have a mircaulous awakening or a dream? God has his own way of comming to people. He has his own way of showing himself. A lot on non believers have a hard time believing in something they cannot see.

Here is a question for you..
Its dark in your house. You walk over to the wall feeling with your hand for the switch... you find it and turn it on. The light comes on and you can see. Do you see the electricity running through the wall?

You do not have to read the Bible to know God. Reading the Bible is having spiritual ears and eyes and the holy spirit. Its having a relationship with God. Same with going to Church. You're not going to hell because you don't go to church. Church is a way for you to get together with others that have a like mind. Its like.. when you go play a game with friends who like the same game as you. Its a place to learn and build a relationship with God.

I wasnt saying that you HAVE to read the Bible to know him. I guess I phrased that wrong. What I ment was. I don't think you knew what the bible has said about the issue at hand. There are many people who have read it cover to cover and still don't know diddly. The Bible doesnt say if you don't KNOW god you're going to hell. It says if you refuse him you will.

Here is a transcript
Transcript from the Larry King show interviewing Joel Osteen: (CNN.com)

KING: Because we've had ministers on who said, your record don't count. You either believe in Christ or you don't. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don't no matter what you've done in your life, you ain't.

OSTEEN: Yeah, I don't know. There's probably a balance between. I believe you have to know Christ. But I think that if you know Christ, if you're a believer in God, you're going to have some good works. I think it's a cop-out to say I'm a Christian but I don't ever do anything ...

KING: What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ at all?

OSTEEN: You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know ...

KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong, aren't they?

OSTEEN: Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God with judge a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus (Cnn.com)

Some people in life are on a mission to convert the world. I think that is great, not because they are trying to prove everyone wrong, but as a true christan it breaks my hart to think anyone will not go to heaven.

Colossians 4:6 - Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
Every christian out there shoud live by this. I honestly think that it is great you are asking questions. I did the same thing.

[Kal-El]

NVM it's pointless. I give up.

Science has no facts and what ever everyone else said.

[Clov3r]

NVM it's pointless. I give up.

Science has no facts and what ever everyone else said.

I gave up a long time ago >.>

[Nokarot]

Its dark in your house. You walk over to the wall feeling with your hand for the switch... you find it and turn it on. The light comes on and you can see. Do you see the electricity running through the wall?

Are you suggesting that god made the lights go bright, when I hit the light switch? To my knowledge, when you hit an electrical switch, the power surges through the wires 'behind' the wall, causing the current to pass through a filiment, which heats it, and thus produces light.

I dont believe in a god, nor will I ever acknowledge the possibility of an existence of some kind of higher being. Basically, I 'refuse' god, as you say. That is my choice, hopefully you and the god you believe in can accept that, without thinking that I'm going to hell.

"God" doesn't turn my lights on. Hard work to pay the electricity bill does, and then science steps in and makes it happen. One of many examples of things "God" has no control over in my life.

Evolution vs. Big Bang is debatable, I think. Or at least, peoples' faith in God is enough to where I dont want to insult somebody by giving them my opinions (Unless people come in to this thread telling me I'm going to hell, as has happened in this thread). But you aren't going to tell me that every scientific fact, every chemical reaction, is divine intervention.

[Jane PMS]

But it is :)

[H2O Fate]

But it is :)

Do you have any proof that every scientific fact + chemical re-action is because of a divine intervention?

[Clov3r]

Do you have any proof that every scientific fact + chemical re-action is because of a divine intervention?

exactly. I think people are taking "because of god" a little too far.

GOD was used to explain how thigns worked many years ago because people did not have the scientific knowledge to prove exactly how things did.


If people want to believe that is because of divine intervention then fine by me. But dont go to schools protesting that science is bad. Because when I have children I want them to go to science class to learn science not theology.

If you have a problem with that, then dont send your children to public school.


not to diss on anyone's beliefs. But that is just a little extreme

[Nokarot]

But it is :)

Wow, I don't really know what to say to that.

If you want to have a friendly debate in a forum, the least you could do is be a little less closed minded, and shut down an entire societies believes with 3 words and a smily.

I'm done with this thread :/. Not even going to bother viewing it again to see a response to this post.

[Jane PMS]

To each his/her own. I really don't care if anyone is offended or not. I have made several longgggg posts in this thread and no one seems to listen to anything. So I am leaving it at

BECAUSE OF GOD!

Take it or leave it :)

[Clov3r]

Everyone made several long posts - it's not that no one wants to listen. Everyone has been listening.

It's just that no one wants to believe what the other has to say because doing so would be a contradiction to their own beliefs.

Which is why I said this thread was pointless.
No one is going to get anywhere in here >.>

[Jane PMS]

ok...... I have already explained the Christian Beliefs so thats all I have to say about it.......

[EE TW1STED]

Hmm...I guess if you really wanna find out the truth, seek it. Or build a time machine and see for yourself! Yay...

[Spudnut]

To each his/her own. I really don't care if anyone is offended or not. I have made several longgggg posts in this thread and no one seems to listen to anything. So I am leaving it at

BECAUSE OF GOD!

Take it or leave it :)

I'm listening shortcake I agree with what u have said I was just to busy arguing to quote and agree with u lol

[Clov3r]

Hmm...I guess if you really wanna find out the truth, seek it. Or build a time machine and see for yourself! Yay...



This is the most sensible idea anyone has come up with in this thread!! You deserve a cookie.

*gets in her Delorean and guns it to 88 \m/

http://i21.tinypic.com/icpg85.jpg

[Eliptyk]

Everyone made several long posts - it's not that no one wants to listen. Everyone has been listening.

It's just that no one wants to believe what the other has to say because doing so would be a contradiction to their own beliefs.

Which is why I said this thread was pointless.
No one is going to get anywhere in here >.>

Ah-hah! You put your finger on the unformed idea rolling around in my head. :yahoo: